This! Absolutely 100% agree!
Still think open carry is a great idea?
- Thread starter Acmemfg
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The article posted doesn’t specify if she was carrying open or concealed. It could be that her “concealed” weapon became unconcealed when she reached up over her head. If you carry open, in public, retention is a must. If you carry concealed, it’s best to be aware of motions or body positions that could expose your weapon.
Either way she got a valuable lesson in situational awareness.
Either way she got a valuable lesson in situational awareness.
Agreed. I believe, if she would have done this, which is a responsibility when carrying and not an option she doesn't have to consider if she doesn't want too. Then it wouldn't have happened, concealed or open.
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In the city I live in it's an ordinance that you have to open carry and not concealed carry with a permit. I don't know what the penalty is though. It's a small county and I was talking to the clerk a few days ago and she stated that she's going to hit 1000 permits soon this year.
Thoroughly well thought out and written sir! Paying attention to our surroundings is of upmost importance, should be at all times but especially so when carrying a firearm. I’m not against anyone open carrying, I open carry at work always, with a thumb drive retention style holster. I just don’t prefer it for myself nor do I recommend it when out and about in public. But I completely see and understand both sides of this. And this is still America! Do what makes you happy! And be responsible whilst doing it!I think the details of this topic, for and against, makes for great conversation and could be very enlightening to all of us, who are proponents or opponents of "open carry."
I would like to play devil's advocate for both. It's what I do...
I absolutely agree with @jar_'s points and frame of mind when it comes to open carry. Hardly anyone notices he's even doing it. They just don't pay attention to what other people are doing or carrying. Also, those same amount of people who are not noticing are probably law abiding themselves and wouldn't lunge for his gun in the first place.
The few nut jobs that would lunge for his gun in an exposed holster? They just might also notice the bulge under a concealed person's jacket or shirt and still lunge for it. Why? Because they are not jobs.
The article, the OP of this thread posted, doesn't show a woman, who had her open carry gun taken because "she was open carrying." She had her "open carry weapon taken" because she didn't have it in a proper retention holster, which she should have been educated about and she broke the number one cardinal rule of not being aware of her immediate personal space, when she stretched out to reach that top shelf at the grocery store?
I dare any experienced, CCW in here right now, that would tell me, "even if their gun and holster was concealed." They would have reached up and stretched out, making their gun vulnerable, even if it was concealed, while people are standing around in close proximity, of their personal space. Anyone?
Just because there are some of us "who prefer" concealed carry, because we like the advantage of surprise or whatever, does not mean, we should ignore the true facts of why that woman's gun was taken and not just because she was open carrying.
I challenge anyone here, who, while doesn't prefer to open carry, to tell me, that if you walked into a Denny's or an IHOP to eat and all you had was a small mouse gun/pea shooter in your pocket for self defense and you walked into the restaurant and saw @jar_ and several other open carry people sitting in various places inside, with big ole' hog leg's strapped on,
You wouldn't feel a bit more at ease? Honestly?
Here is the legal definition of "Open Carry.
"open carry" refers to the act of law-abiding citizens carrying a properly holstered handgun in plain sight, wherever it is legal to do so, as they go about their daily lives.
The woman in the store didn't follow the proper legal definition with her holster. She also, wasn't paying attention, which is a sin against God & Man imo, if you are packing open heat. Us pro gun people don't condemn all guns and responsible gun ownership, because someone used a gun to kill someone. So, in the same fairness, we shouldn't condemn all open carry people because one female is not doing what she should to prevent that from happening?
The woman in the store, was not wearing a holster that had a strap or any other retention device. Listen, I have just as much common since as anyone else, plus a few decades of LE experience and I just bought an open top good looking leather holster for my Ruger SP101. Was I planning on wearing it open carry every once in awhile?
If I was, I can tell you, I ain't considering it anymore.
Which is A MUST, for open and concealed carry. As @nortac said in his post. It seemed more natural in Arizona. Why? Because they all have been doing it for quite some time and it has become part of the culture. So should all open carry move to Arizona? Or should we support them in their efforts to make the open carrying of a firearm as natural and acceptable as concealed carry? If it can seem natural in Arizona, then we should be able to create that same natural culture everywhere?
There are 43 states of the union who allow open carry. Surely all 43 state governments can't be idiots? Just because we don't prefer it ourselves? We shouldn't be critical of those who prefer things we don't prefer, until we truly and honestly, look at it from their perspective.
If I am open carrying? And I have a "proper holster" which has retention? And I am taking absolute responsibility of paying attention and being aware of my personal space and surroundings like all who carry are supposed to?
I dare someone to walk up and try to snatch my gun off of me. Cuz they're are going to get alotta' hurt raining down on them.
And I am one, who never prefers to open carry... I think us who conceal carry, like to accept the culture how it is right now, where if you have an open gun you are considered a criminal or a potential victim of a criminal. Whereas, those who open carry want to actually change the culture instead of accept it. For the good of everyone.
Thoroughly well thought out and written sir! Paying attention to our surroundings is of upmost importance, should be at all times but especially so when carrying a firearm. I’m not against anyone open carrying, I open carry at work always, with a thumb drive retention style holster. I just don’t prefer it for myself nor do I recommend it when out and about in public. But I completely see and understand both sides of this. And this is still America! Do what makes you happy! And be responsible whilst doing it!
I think the majority of people who have a permit to carry or who practice Constitutional Carry in their state, still prefer to keep it concealed as you and I both do. We have had open carry here in Oklahoma for a few years now and I don't think I have seen a single case of open carry in that time.
The open carry I have seen, are LEO's because they have badges in front of their holsters.
I saw a guy open carrying couple of months back. He was talking on his phone while wandering around the gun section of Academy Sports paying no attention to his surroundings. His chosen method of carry was using a non retention OWB belt clip holster that he had clipped to his front pants pocket. The gun was flopping about with every step he took. Anyone that wanted that gun could’ve had it, and the holster too, in less than a second. He was clueless to the fact that he was putting himself in more danger than if he wasn’t carrying at all.
Not a fan of open carry at all. I understand it’s legal but it’s still ok to dislike it for several reasons. Many of the folks in here are probably the thoughtful and safe folks who open carry responsibility, but common sense isn’t that common with most people.
I think of it similar to my fur trapping experience. I love trapping but there are some who for various reasons dislike it tremendously. Then there is the 70% or so that trust the department of natural resources to regulate it. The 70% will quickly turn against trapping if some of the trappers use tools irresponsibly and kill a pet or hurt someone. Just because trapping is legal in an area doesn’t make it smart to legally set killer traps there. You can give the whole profession a black eye doing “legal” things.
I just don’t think it’s worth the bad press, but it is just my opinion. I understand other people have valid opinions.
I think of it similar to my fur trapping experience. I love trapping but there are some who for various reasons dislike it tremendously. Then there is the 70% or so that trust the department of natural resources to regulate it. The 70% will quickly turn against trapping if some of the trappers use tools irresponsibly and kill a pet or hurt someone. Just because trapping is legal in an area doesn’t make it smart to legally set killer traps there. You can give the whole profession a black eye doing “legal” things.
I just don’t think it’s worth the bad press, but it is just my opinion. I understand other people have valid opinions.
I saw a guy open carrying couple of months back. He was talking on his phone while wandering around the gun section of Academy Sports paying no attention to his surroundings. His chosen method of carry was using a non retention OWB belt clip holster that he had clipped to his front pants pocket. The gun was flopping about with every step he took. Anyone that wanted that gun could’ve had it, and the holster too, in less than a second. He was clueless to the fact that he was putting himself in more danger than if he wasn’t carrying at all.
Probably had his cell phone in his gun hand while talking also. This shows, it takes more then just a permit for responsible self defense carry.
He sure did! The other thing is that by clipping the belt clip on his pocket instead of a belt, as intended, he would’ve needed two hands to draw or the gun would be coming up with the holster still intact.
You are correct, we do not live in the Wild West anymore, now we live in the Wild US!
I dunno, I think, I absolutely agree with your analogy 100% except for the bolded. I think "common sense" Is common with most people. If this weren't true, then the story of the lady would be "the rule instead of the exception" and we would read this exact same scenario many times a week. Why? Because there are millions of concealed and open carry citizens who go to the grocery store, every single day?
I am not going to be against all drivers who don't text and drive because of the few who do. I am not going to be against all AR owners, because a few not jobs shot people with an AR. And while I myself only prefer to carry concealed like you, I am not going to allow myself to say, I don't think others can, or shouldn't or say it's a bad idea, because I either don't myself or when I can't actually back up with proven, documented statistics that show, open carry people are being disarmed in droves.
Don't the anti-gun opponents say this same thing about us concealed carry folk? It's going to be "the wild, wild west" if people are allowed to carry? Has those narratives been proven over the years? I think not.
Oklahoma's open carry was established in 2012. That was 9 years ago. Two things I haven't seen happen in that almost of a decade?
1. I haven't seen anyone "open carry." Doesn't mean they are not, just means I haven't seen it.
2. I haven't heard of a single case of an open carry person, getting their firearm snatched. I haven't even heard of an open carry falling victim to anything criminal because their holster and gun was seen out and exposed.
I'm not saying we shouldn't prefer one over another, I'm just saying, statistics don't back up or match our negative views on open carry?
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I think permit classes and constitutional carry should come with a mandatory IQ test?
Three possible irrelevancies but then that is what I specialize in (in what I specialize).
Open carry does not preclude also concealed carry.
When I do open carry it is either a revolver or DAO semi-auto with a trigger that is somewhat heavy or it is a semi-automatic with a safety. These days it is most often the latter. In fact quite a few of the handguns I have carried openly over the last few years have multiple safeties that must be engage to allow the gun to fire.
And finally back when I started carrying a handgun was legal to openly carry in California with no licensing required. But there were lots of quite nice topless restaurants along Little Santa Monica Blvd. Once when we went for lunch Al ordered a martini but when the waitress brought our drinks and leaned across the table to give me my Manhattan her breast caressed Al's martini.
Without hesitation he pointed out that he had asked for onions in his martini.
Open carry does not preclude also concealed carry.
When I do open carry it is either a revolver or DAO semi-auto with a trigger that is somewhat heavy or it is a semi-automatic with a safety. These days it is most often the latter. In fact quite a few of the handguns I have carried openly over the last few years have multiple safeties that must be engage to allow the gun to fire.
And finally back when I started carrying a handgun was legal to openly carry in California with no licensing required. But there were lots of quite nice topless restaurants along Little Santa Monica Blvd. Once when we went for lunch Al ordered a martini but when the waitress brought our drinks and leaned across the table to give me my Manhattan her breast caressed Al's martini.
Without hesitation he pointed out that he had asked for onions in his martini.
Funny stuff!
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- #37
A properly fit and boned holster is (my opinion) all a civilian pistolero requires to meet the “Retention“ concerns
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- #39
Both.
Likely that is true yet even though I have what I would consider properly boned holsters I prefer an additional amount of retention. I still prefer a strap as additional security even though anyone familiar with such retention would not consider that a deterrent to snatch-n-grab.
But I understand that much of that is simply familiarity.
But I understand that much of that is simply familiarity.
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