Stiction damage?

[Tomo]

Yesterday, I was lapping and cleaning up an old Washita and I got to thinking. I often use a diamond plate to lap stones and will condition the surface further by rubbing two lapped stones of a similar type against each other. When you rub two flat surfaces together they tend to stick together. It’s extremely hard to pull the stones apart so I generally slide them apart before they get too stuck.

When honing a razor I never slide the blade off the edge of the stone. To lift a razor I will rotate the blade on the spine to lift the edge clear and then lift up the razor. This is essentially pulling two flat surfaces apart. I can feel the stiction. I am now thinking that this technique could be damaging to the very thin apex on a microscopic level.

Would I get better honing results if I were to slide the razor off the end of the stone? This would have the further benefit of using the stone’s full length and minimize dishing. The hone wear pattern seen on vintage razors with the upturned toes leads me to believe that this may have been common practice in the old days.

 

[lloydw]

I feel that the blade or part of a blade coming off a stones edge, at odd pressures and angles while changing direction, would just add opportunity for the edge to get damaged. More so than flipping on the spine with the bulk of it flat on the stone.
Also more opportunity than I could think of from the flat edges being pulled apart. I haven’t worried about that but I’ve never thought to worry about it either

 

[silverlifter]

This is essentially pulling two flat surfaces apart. I can feel the stiction. I am now thinking that this technique could be damaging to the very thin apex on a microscopic level.

My sense is that unless it was a wedge, with the entire surface of the blade in contact with the stone, and a mighty big wedge at that to cover the sort of area that would create significant surface tension, it would not be an issue.

 

[rbscebu]

@Tomo, I had similar concerns to yours. I considered running the blade off the end of the honing surface but didn't like the idea with the possibility of the spine rising or lowering while doing so. What I considered better was to slide the blade off the honing surface sideways.

 

[Empire straights]

Yesterday, I was lapping and cleaning up an old Washita and I got to thinking. I often use a diamond plate to lap stones and will condition the surface further by rubbing two lapped stones of a similar type against each other. When you rub two flat surfaces together they tend to stick together. It’s extremely hard to pull the stones apart so I generally slide them apart before they get too stuck.

When honing a razor I never slide the blade off the edge of the stone. To lift a razor I will rotate the blade on the spine to lift the edge clear and then lift up the razor. This is essentially pulling two flat surfaces apart. I can feel the stiction. I am now thinking that this technique could be damaging to the very thin apex on a microscopic level.

Would I get better honing results if I were to slide the razor off the end of the stone? This would have the further benefit of using the stone’s full length and minimize dishing. The hone wear pattern seen on vintage razors with the upturned toes leads me to believe that this may have been common practice in the old days.

I've always used the whole stone and honed off the edge, but if you're worried about damage to a razors edge due to stiction,, I bet a drop of dawn would clear that problem right up. Water is the only medium I've seen this with. Saliva does something similar but it's more of a slow grinding to a halt as opposed to a sudden stop.

 

[Tomo]

@Tomo, I had similar concerns to yours. I considered running the blade off the end of the honing surface but didn't like the idea with the possibility of the spine rising or lowering while doing so. What I considered better was to slide the blade off the honing surface sideways.

This could be another reasons for x-strokes being traditionally recommended.

 

[JPO]

Yesterday, I was lapping and cleaning up an old Washita and I got to thinking. I often use a diamond plate to lap stones and will condition the surface further by rubbing two lapped stones of a similar type against each other. When you rub two flat surfaces together they tend to stick together. It’s extremely hard to pull the stones apart so I generally slide them apart before they get too stuck.

When honing a razor I never slide the blade off the edge of the stone. To lift a razor I will rotate the blade on the spine to lift the edge clear and then lift up the razor. This is essentially pulling two flat surfaces apart. I can feel the stiction. I am now thinking that this technique could be damaging to the very thin apex on a microscopic level.

Would I get better honing results if I were to slide the razor off the end of the stone? This would have the further benefit of using the stone’s full length and minimize dishing. The hone wear pattern seen on vintage razors with the upturned toes leads me to believe that this may have been common practice in the old days.

For the final finish, when you start to develop some resistance I have always relied on shorter laps with less pressure. I more or less just work on a small section of the stone.
Using the full length of a fast synthetic stone might be damaging to the edge. It is fine for the work leading up to the finishing stage.

"Stiction" only means that your bevel is getting polished. It doesn't indicate anything about the edge condition.

I think there is allot of reasons not to move the razor off the end of the stone, but If you manage your pressure using a rolling x stroke, you should not have this problem in the first place. This is allot easier to manage on stones that are not too hard.

 

[Titleist]

Interesting topic this morning. These are the quotes that make the most sense to me personally:

I've always used the whole stone and honed off the edge, but if you're worried about damage to a razors edge due to stiction,, I bet a drop of dawn would clear that problem right up

As of late I have been doing exactly this with excellent results.

"Stiction" only means that your bevel is getting polished. It doesn't indicate anything about the edge condition.

I didn't know this, interesting and reassuring at the same time.

but If you manage your pressure using a rolling x stroke, you should not have this problem in the first place.

Agreed.

 

[Empire straights]

@Tomo, I had similar concerns to yours. I considered running the blade off the end of the honing surface but didn't like the idea with the possibility of the spine rising or lowering while doing so. What I considered better was to slide the blade off the honing surface sideways.

This is great advice. I always hone in an "arch" when I sharpen knives or razors. I make rainbows on the sitar of the stone. The reason is because I prefer smaller stones, and honing in hand, even with my really big stones. After I make my "arch" I pull the blade down off the stone. I put a decent chamfer on most of my stones. Not quite vintage la lune but bigger than what you'll find on an ark or coticule.

 

[RayClem]

I have seen videos recommending that Coticules be flattened by rubbing too similar stones against each other. It would also work with other stones.

The stiction between the razor and the finishing stone usually occurs as the edge reaches its final polish level. Some stones tend to be "stickier" than others. The sticking is caused by the surface tension of the water film between two smooth surfaces. When using a sticky stone, I like to finish honing under running water. That disrupts the surface tension and allows me to achieve a very fine edge. When you start to feel sticking under running water, you know you have achieved the best edge that stone has to offer.

 

[Mitzie]

Mount some wooden blocks, end grain up, either end of your stone(s) so you use the complete length of the stone

 

[Wid]

Something I've never been concerned with, no need to start. If I were I think i'd just run the blade off the hone with an x stroke

 

[duke762]

Stiction is like my job, a good thing but you must embrace the suck. Sorry couldn't resist.

I don't think I could put into words, how I bring the blade off the stone. I may be able to tell you how I present the razor to the stone...I've never really thought about what I do at the end of the stroke. I do rolling x stokes mostly and I do try to use all of my stone (corners are problematic) and periodically I get stiction. Do wider bevels make stiction more pronounced? Yeah, I hone in an arch, like Empire mentions above.

As far as rubbing 2 stones together, definitely maybe. Most drastic thing I've seen was lapping 2 barber hones. I lapped them in a progression to 1500 grit W/D. Something wasn't right, they didn't look right or feel right. I read in an obscure thread somewhere, that after lapping, final finish should be achieved by rubbing 2 hones together. Lo and behold they shaped right up. Looked right, felt right, good to go, still don't use them..... I don't know if thats any indication it would work for other hones. On a Washita, I think I would stick with loose grit to fatten and fixed grit for final fatness and dressing the surface. By rubbing the 2 Washitas together i would think you would be knocking the cutting ability down by the 2 stones affecting each other. I believe best practice would be lap on W/D for a final flattening and repeatable results. By the way, I've read diamond plates don't last long on Arls.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You can finish under running water or with dish soap or with shave lather, to moderate the stiction. Also, shorten up your strokes at the end of the finisher stage. Very short x strokes with a few pull strokes mixed in, will fight any tendency for micro-burring caused by excessive stiction induced edge-to-stone pressure. If it is even a thing. I think sometimes it is.

But, if your bevel is properly set and you have off the chain stiction, you are probably done and you probably have a decent shaving edge there. You can try to further refine it using the lather or dish soap trick and diminishing pressure, or hit the pasted balsa progression, or just strop and shave if you aren't that picky.

 

[Bowmaker]

Running water promotes suction for me. Suction increases pressure and at that point my edge will be going backwards. I don't think that suction means that I have got all that the stone had to offer.
YMMV