"Sticking"

[Dullasdishwater]

Hi,

I'm using a DMT 8" x 3" coarse dia-sharp diamond sharpening plate to lap my honing stones (all naniwa specialty stones).

Anyhoo, after a few strokes on the honing stone, the plate gets stuck. So, I have to prise it away from the speciality stone, wet it and then lap again.

This is contrary to any vids on lapping with DMTs that I have seen. The bloke doing the demonstration invariably just pencils the grid on the stone and then after a few strokes the grid is obliterated.

So either (a) I've broken it.

(b) the DMT plate I have is pony.

(c) or something else - maybe I need to go to confession and purge my soul?

Anyone know if it's (a), (b) or (c)?

Apologies if there is already a thread on this. If the moderators would like to merge it or stick - no pun intended - it into another pertinent thread, please do so.

Many thanks.

DADW

PS: this is the DMT

https://www.amazon.com/DMT-D8C-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond/dp/B0001WP1L0

 

[jj_sharp]

Consider putting a straight edge on the Naniwa specialty stones at various places to see how dished it is.

 

[stone and strop]

Dia-sharps are not the best for lapping. They stick.
The perforated DMT's are what most people use.
W/D paper on a flat surface will suffice in a pinch.

 

[Joshua223]

If the guy in the video is quickly erasing the grid, the stone was probably already flat or needed very little lapping.

 

[Dullasdishwater]

Consider putting a straight edge on the Naniwa specialty stones at various places to see how dished it is.

I did that. It varies from stone to stone. The worst effected is the 8000 grit, which is usually off - I can see light between straight edge and hone - at the edges.

 

[Dullasdishwater]

Dia-sharps are not the best for lapping. They stick.
The perforated DMT's are what most people use.
W/D paper on a flat surface will suffice in a pinch.

Thanks. I'll invest in a perforated stone. Any recommendations?

What's W/D paper?

 

[Dullasdishwater]

If the guy in the video is quickly erasing the grid, the stone was probably already flat or needed very little lapping.

Yeh, I guess so.

I think I'll try the perforated plate. Old "sticky" is beginning to get on my wick.

 

[Dick peck]

Wet /dry sandpaper . It works .

 

[1Speedster]

Sounds like yours is working just fine. My DMT8c would always get stuck to my hones, so I mounted that sucker in a stone holder which allowed me to pry it off more easily. It has worked this way for me since 2012 on Naniwa Super Stones (old style w/ plastic bases). I also noticed when using an Atoma 1200 on a Jnat to generate slurry that it sticks pretty good also (but not nearly as bad as the DMT).

Good idea to ensure that your plate is nicely worn down of any high diamonds by running a screwdriver shank over the plate liberally if you haven't done so already.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've used a Diasharp for ages. Works great. Do it over a sink, add water/rinse it as needed to prevent it from becoming stuck.

 

[lightfoot]

I especially hate lapping my Naniwa 8k with my Atoma 1200 but the A-400 seems to work much better. I do lap under running water. Honestly after I’ve done all I can after 5k I jump over to naturals as fast as I can. Even my humble 100mm x 40mm Coticule seems to offer up edges better suited to my needs than either the Naniwa 8k or 12k. Now with that being said I’m not making the assumption that you’re trying to shave off the 8k though...

 

[Dullasdishwater]

Sounds like yours is working just fine. My DMT8c would always get stuck to my hones, so I mounted that sucker in a stone holder which allowed me to pry it off more easily. It has worked this way for me since 2012 on Naniwa Super Stones (old style w/ plastic bases). I also noticed when using an Atoma 1200 on a Jnat to generate slurry that it sticks pretty good also (but not nearly as bad as the DMT).

Good idea to ensure that your plate is nicely worn down of any high diamonds by running a screwdriver shank over the plate liberally if you haven't done so already.

I use the holder as well, although I put the honing stone in it and mesh it against the DMT.

I did use a screw driver for that purpose shortly after purchasing it.

How do you clean yours?

 

[Dullasdishwater]

I especially hate lapping my Naniwa 8k with my Atoma 1200 but the A-400 seems to work much better. I do lap under running water. Honestly after I’ve done all I can after 5k I jump over to naturals as fast as I can. Even my humble 100mm x 40mm Coticule seems to offer up edges better suited to my needs than either the Naniwa 8k or 12k. Now with that being said I’m not making the assumption that you’re trying to shave off the 8k though...

Yeh, I'm not sure if the 8k naniwa specialty is all it's cracked up to be. The edge I get is ok. Mind you, I'm still trying to get my head around the various sharpness tests. I have noticed that the edge I get is a curate's egg when it comes to hanging hair tests: one part of the edge will slice the hair cleanly, but another part will either produce that violin string sound or cut it unevenly. I just put all of this down to lack of honing experience, but now I'm thinking that I should try a different type of 8K stone, like a natural stone or summat.

 

[1Speedster]

I use the holder as well, although I put the honing stone in it and mesh it against the DMT.

I did use a screw driver for that purpose shortly after purchasing it.

How do you clean yours?

Right, but both my hone and DMT8c are each in separate holders otherwise I'm stuck like you are....you see?

Cleaning was simply a matter of running my fingers over the plate under the faucet. A nylon brush / toothbrush would work well too I suppose, but I have not found one necessary.

Your HHT issue sounds more like you haven't got the bevel set well in those particular spots. Getting a new hone under the razor likely won't fix the issue. It's that portion of the razor that you need to get worked on the hone one way or another. Honing gymnastics might be needed, and the fix likely takes place prior to the 8k stone.

 

[lightfoot]

Yeh, I'm not sure if the 8k naniwa specialty is all it's cracked up to be. The edge I get is ok. Mind you, I'm still trying to get my head around the various sharpness tests. I have noticed that the edge I get is a curate's egg when it comes to hanging hair tests: one part of the edge will slice the hair cleanly, but another part will either produce that violin string sound or cut it unevenly. I just put all of this down to lack of honing experience, but now I'm thinking that I should try a different type of 8K stone, like a natural stone or summat.

Now this is purely opinion but I’ve not really enjoyed shaving off either the Naniwa 8k or 12k. I also have the Shapton pro 12k & I don’t like the shave off that either. I’m sure others can pull it off & there are probably other fine grit sub 1 mic. synthetics out there that are good.
But here’s my position on shaving off synthetics: I would hone up to 8k & finish off a good compound if I were doing a full synth regimen. I just think that pastes are better suited for the job in the sub micron range. The stones simply have their limits in my hands at least.

 

[Dullasdishwater]

Right, but both my hone and DMT8c are each in separate holders otherwise I'm stuck like you are....you see?

Cleaning was simply a matter of running my fingers over the plate under the faucet. A nylon brush / toothbrush would work well too I suppose, but I have not found one necessary.

Your HHT issue sounds more like you haven't got the bevel set well in those particular spots. Getting a new hone under the razor likely won't fix the issue. It's that portion of the razor that you need to get worked on the hone one way or another. Honing gymnastics might be needed, and the fix likely takes place prior to the 8k stone.

lol - fair enough.

Honing gymnastics? Ok, I'm scared now.

 

[Dullasdishwater]

Now this is purely opinion but I’ve not really enjoyed shaving off either the Naniwa 8k or 12k. I also have the Shapton pro 12k & I don’t like the shave off that either. I’m sure others can pull it off & there are probably other fine grit sub 1 mic. synthetics out there that are good.
But here’s my position on shaving off synthetics: I would hone up to 8k & finish off a good compound if I were doing a full synth regimen. I just think that pastes are better suited for the job in the sub micron range. The stones simply have their limits in my hands at least.

Off the 8k/12K nani sp:

Sometimes it's a really nice shave, but more often than not it's good on one side of the face but bad on the other or after 2-3 shaves, the blade starts to drag.

 

[lightfoot]

So here’s a perplexing thing to consider: The size of Coticule garnets can certainly exceed 1mic but the effect on the edge leaves me with a sub micron sensation on the face. But I do “manage” the surface texture of my Coticules throughout the process to optimize the end result. I’ll do an initial lapping with the 1200 Atoma and do some light slurry honing. Then I’ll clear the stone & dress it down to a finer surface with the slurry stone just prior to going to water only. Of course pressure has to be lowered throughout as well.

 

[lightfoot]

The reason I bring up the Coticule discussion is to draw a distinction between natural & synthetic stones. With natural stones there lies the option to tailor the surface to a significant degree. With synthetics my efforts to dress the surface up or down hasn’t really had a perceptible effect on the end result within the range of my efforts at least. So it’s not natural vs synths from a better or worse standpoint but rather which one or which surface can be really dialed in towards the desired effect. I think I’m done now...

 

[Gamma]

People show all kinds of stuff on youtube, not all of it is accurate info. A stone that isn't flat won't stick, and pencil grids will lap off long before the stone gets to being anywhere near 'dead flat'. I only use grids to show me where the hills and valleys are. After that I use a good quality straight edge to check flatness across 8 axes.
If your stone is sticking to the DMT, then you are probably not getting a water bath under the Naniwas's working surface while you are lapping. In other words, water should be falling on the plate while honing. Otherwise, the slurry can/will build up which creats a vacuum. Too much pressure will exacerbate this tremendously, in fact you can press down on one of those 10 mm thick Specialty/Super Stones and if both surfaces are wet it can stick a bit even without any lapping. With proper lapping though, you will eventually create a very flat Naniwa which can stick a bit, but it usually won't 'lock on'.
Before dumping your Nani 8k, it migth be a good idea to learn how to set a bevel well enough to shave with first. That way, you'll be able to actually judge the performance of that 8k fairly. Because if you don't have the bevel set right, and I'd bet a dollar you don't, then there isn't an 8k on the planet that is going to improve your results.