Steep Angle

[mjclark]

I just shaved with an Ontario Cutlery Co razor exclusively using a 70deg plus angle and got a very efficient and superbly comfortable shave.

Until today I was led to believe by everything that I'd read that steep angle shaving would only work for DEs with large blade exposure like the R41, FaTip and Single Ring.

The original theory was that steep angle was effective due to the comb of the DE stretching the skin.

But then the guardless devette came along:
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=437496
and disproved that theory, since steep angle works great with the guardless devette too.

So it was then suggested that steep angle worked due to the blade being curved by the cap.

But Guru17 accidentally put his devette baseplate on upside down so now the blade wasn't curved at all yet steep angle still worked.
So it's not curvature either.

Then engblom produced his vector theory for how steep angle works:
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=440536

But this theory suggests that steep angle works for str8s too, and guess what? It does!!

It feels very counterintuitive, and it must degrade the edge quickly but it produces a great result.

Try it to yourself

So why is the received wisdom that only a very shallow angle will give a good shave with a str8?

We all believed it but it's nonsense...
...the earth isn't flat, it's round!

It bears repeating - try this for yourself

 

[BSAGuy]

Interesting post and challenge, Marcus. Hope all is well with you.

 

[McVeyMac]

We all believed it but it's nonsense...
...the earth isn't flat, it's round!

But you have to admit, the sun, the stars and all of the planets do revolve around the earth, don't you?

 

[Johnsebesta]

Scraping or cutting? The greater the angle the more scraping you'll be doing. Try different angles on different parts of your face. Neck- shallow cutting angle. Cheeks- steeper scraping angle.

 

[drifter]

 

[mjclark]

Scraping or cutting? The greater the angle the more scraping you'll be doing. Try different angles on different parts of your face. Neck- shallow cutting angle. Cheeks- steeper scraping angle.

Like I said, try it for yourself.
No scraping, just BBS.

 

[denvernoob]

My only thought here for a good reason (outside of hone concerns and the like) is the potential for injury as a driver for the shallow angle tradition...with a more vertical angle and ANY side to side movement a person could very easily be in stitches territory....

 

[mjclark]

My only thought here for a good reason (outside of hone concerns and the like) is the potential for injury as a driver for the shallow angle tradition...with a more vertical angle and ANY side to side movement a person could very easily be in stitches territory....

That is an excellent point, though I didn't feel in any danger at 70deg.

 

[nuclearblast]

I don't think the theory was that the steep angle works due to the combs stretching the skin. When we first started talking more about the steep angle, almost a year ago, we thought the stretching effect helps, but we never said that the stretching effect is the main or only reason.

The results might be equally efficient, but I still prefer the R41 with its base plate, and with a 3D printed Spitfire cap it's even better. It's a much more enjoyable shave, IMO. Clean, close and smooth ... yep ... smooth.

YMMV, as always.

 

[mjclark]

I don't think the theory was that the steep angle works due to the combs stretching the skin. When we first started talking more about the steep angle, almost a year ago, we thought the stretching effect helps, but we never said that the stretching effect is the main or only reason.

Fair enough, but at that time it was generally believed that steep angle would only work with DEs and the question "why won't this work with str8s" was answered convincingly but, it now turns out, erroneously.

engblom's vector theory and tonight's str8 shave are game changers.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Safeties don't allow steep angles by stretching the skin, they allow them by creating a pivot point that is not the edge, allowing force perpendicular to the plane of your face to be applied without driving the edge into your face... hence the "safety" part. A straight razor has a single "pivot" point, if you lift the spine, allowing unlimited penetration (until you hit something which will turn the blade, IE bone). So the only thing preventing steep angles from penetrating your skin is the skins resistance to the cut being rather high when the blade is not driven directly into it. Tools generally don't penetrate solid material without having force applied perpendicularly to the surface being cut. This is why you can drag a razor along your skin at 90* and not get cut.

The reason this person is finding that skin is penetrated at lower angles vs higher angles is because his control of the razor, chisel, or whatever he is using is such that he is applying pressure at some angle not zero to the plane of his face at these angles, while he is able to restrain himself from doing so at higher angles. That is all. It's first week General Phys: Mechanics material. So long as you are not applying force towards a flat (and uniform) surface, no angle will ever allow a tool to penetrate it, since parallel pressure has no mechanism in this procedure to be converted to perpendicular pressure.

The reason angles are important with straights is NOT to prevent cuts DIRECTLY. It's to reduce the amount of pressure you need to apply to the razor, because @ 90* to the hair growth, which will average perpendicular to your skin at the surface of your skin (avg... this is why we have ATG/XTG/WTG passes), the least pressure is required to sever the hair. By requiring less pressure, obviously control will improve, and there will be less irritation. The fact that a straight held flat is all but impossible to cut yourself with is just a positive benefit of shaving in the most efficient way, anyway. However, it requires a sharp razor to cut a freely hanging hair without deflecting it (or at least without significant deflection), thus with duller razors, pitching the razor up, to essentially pin the hairs between the skin and the edge and use your face as a cutting board tends to be a habit people develop; creating the impression that there is more efficient cutting at an angle. The truth is, it's obvious when you consider it reasonably that a flush edge will cut a standing hair far more efficiently. Try cutting a limp stalk of celery with a dull knife in mid air, then try again on a board. It's a lot easier to do it on the board. Now realize that when you shave with a raised spine, you are (almost certainly) exerting force perpendicular to the plane of your face. This causes irritation, potential cuts, generally every mistake or bad element of a shave.

 

[mjclark]

Honestly, just try it

 

[SliceOfLife]

No. It's silly to do it. What do you think is happening to the hair? It's collapsing against your face, and being cut with downward pressure from you stabilizing the razor. In what way could this possibly benefit the shave, except allowing the usage of a MASSIVELY duller edge. Just because something works, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

What you are doing is exactly the process used by guys shaving with axes and machete's for show... except you have no reason to. Their tools aren't sharp enough to shave properly. Yours should be.

 

[mjclark]

No. It's silly to do it. What do you think is happening to the hair? It's collapsing against your face, and being cut with downward pressure from you stabilizing the razor. In what way could this possibly benefit the shave, except allowing the usage of a MASSIVELY duller edge. Just because something works, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

What you are doing is exactly the process used by guys shaving with axes and machete's for show... except you have no reason to. Their tools aren't sharp enough to shave properly. Yours should be.

Honestly, just try it
Contempt prior to investigation is a bar to all knowledge.

 

[SliceOfLife]

It's not prior to investigation. Every time I've had to pitch a razor to complete a shave with a subpar edge, I was "investigating" this theory. As I have said, it's basic mechanical physics at work. The vast, vast majority of shavers should understand why and how this technique works, and for anyone with a sharp razor, it will be a very, very poor shave.

 

[mjclark]

Steep angle works superbly with DE blades, which are generally considered "sharp."

Let's just see what others make of it.

I am enjoying an awesome shave as a result of steep angle with that HHT 3-4 Ontario Cutlery edge.

It bears repeating again - just try it

 

[SliceOfLife]

Believe me, I would try it if I didn't know exactly how it would go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wfLjTx3jL7k

Skip the axe shave. Watch the knife shave. This is exactly what you're doing. It's a technique to use a duller tool to shave. Trust me, cutting with the edge facing the surface you want to cut is and ALWAYS will be more efficient than trying to cut with the edge turned 90* away from what you want to cut, and pulling what you're cutting under the edge. The fact that you can get good shaves holding it at 90* and scraping is great. I already know for a fact that I can't. That is why I use a sharper edge and shave with my beard hairs upright. It works better for me.

 

[mjclark]

Believe me, I would try it if I didn't know exactly how it would go

C'mon Slice, get one of your parafeather edges and JUST TRY IT

 

[Gamma]

It's a technique to use a duller tool to shave.

^this

There is no way in hell I'm putting one of my edges to my face at 70˚.
No
Freaking
Way.

 

[Seraphim]

Believe me, I would try it if I didn't know exactly how it would go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wfLjTx3jL7k

Skip the axe shave. Watch the knife shave. This is exactly what you're doing. It's a technique to use a duller tool to shave. Trust me, cutting with the edge facing the surface you want to cut is and ALWAYS will be more efficient than trying to cut with the edge turned 90* away from what you want to cut, and pulling what you're cutting under the edge. The fact that you can get good shaves holding it at 90* and scraping is great. I already know for a fact that I can't. That is why I use a sharper edge and shave with my beard hairs upright. It works better for me.

Perhaps the "forgiving" Coti and JNat edges are also a result of the edge being slightly duller?

Perhaps those "harsh" feeling synthetic and lapping film edges simply are not being used at the proper acute angle to maximize the sharpness of them?