Splitting Hairs and Grinding Gears...Let's Get Into It

[DrPDPT]

Good Morning,
So, a few questions have been on my mind for a while. Seeing as how the B&B community has been a great to be a part of thus far, I thought I'd share and see what kind of responses I get. Please be advised I have no intention of disrespecting anyone's opinions or views regardless if I agree with them or not. I'm not here to point fingers and label others as being dogmatic either. I'm simply attempting to learn by connecting with other shavers.

Now that we got that out of the way, I present these questions. Thank you.

P.S. Don't feel obligated to read/respond to the entire post, it's a lengthy one.

• Pre-shave - This one involves a few questions actually.
  1. If quality materials are used and the technique is sufficient (including prep), shouldn't pre-shave not be needed?
     • I wouldn't think so unless the benefit is for placebo effect, ritual, or collector reasons.
  2. If pre-shave is applied, am I to assume it's benefits will last all 3-4 passes without re-application?
     • Typically, I don't think it would but Your Mileage Will Vary (YMWV)

1. The 3-Pass Shave - WTG > XTG > ATG. Does anyone know of any studies done to show whether this 3-pass progression is actually more gentle on the blade edge or not? I know that it sn't the only reason the 3-pass is done since some find it more comfortable as well.

1. One of the touted benefits of wet shaving is that the use of a single blade vs multi-blade = less irritation and chance of ingrown hairs?
   • 99.9% of all of the wetshaving videos I've seen on YouTube happen to show consistent use of the buffing method, which relies on multiple light strokes in a given area. Therefore I would assume that for any shaver (I'm not assuming all do) who utilizes buffing it would actually be more irritating than a single stroke of a cartridge razor since the multi-blade cartridge contact is made over a wider surface area creating less skin deformation.
   • An example of the way I see it would be something like:
     • 1 DE blade x 4 Buffing Strokes x 3 Passes = 12 exfoliating encounters overs an increased point of contact pressure (less SA)
     • 3 Cartridges Blades x 1 stroke x 3 Passes = 9 exfoliating encounters over a a lesser point of contact pressure (increased SA)
   • So... it really just depends on many individual factors. e.g. # of blades, # of buffing strokes (if any for DE/SR/Cartridge), # of passes, pressure, prep, etc, etc.

1. For those who like finishing on natural stones, why not lead up to using a piece of flat glass or highly polished marble?
   • I have no opinion on this, I'm just curious.

 

[South Dakota Guy]

As to the whole pre-shave thing I don't need it. I did consider it at the beginning of my DE shaving journey when I was struggling. Over time my technique has improved including lather making. I don't use aggressive razors which tend to give me irritation. I have found blades that give me a smooth comfortable shave. I recently purchased a razor that works extremely well for me. Basically I do 3 passes plus everyday and irritation has become rare.
I have no idea about the wear and tear on blades caused by 3 passes but it seems to me more cutting should equal more wear and tear so more passes more wear. Blades are cheap. I don't lose sleep over it.
As for cartridge razors causing ingrown hairs and irritation, I suppose for some people. I used cartridge razors for 40 years without issues but I never did an ATG pass or tried for BBS. I didn't do that until I started shaving with DEs and came to this site. I think cartridge razors are designed to cause less irritation. I think a lot of factors contribute to ingrown hairs, not the least is how your stubble grows back. Many black men and others with very curly hair are more susceptible to ingrown hairs. Imagine if your hair grows in tight spirals and you shave it below skin level, what is going to happen when it tries to grow sideways? I would think people with straighter hair would have less issues.
These are just my random thoughts to the questions you posed.

 

[Timeclo]

Here's my thought on the topics.

Pre-shave - I got a couple and I use it couple times throughout the week. I don't notice a big difference after using a pre-shave soap but it feels right when I use it. It's more of a ritual for me but it's said to 'degrease' your face which kind of makes sense. It also boost the lather and possibly slickness so it doesn't hurt to use it. I've tried a shave with only the pre-shave soap and got a great shave out of it... so it's slick by itself.

3-pass shave - I don't know any studies of this in relations to the blade.

Benefits of wet shaving: single vs multi blades - It could be that people buff more with the DE razors vs Cartridges. However, the big factor is not the buffing, but the amount of pressure for me. Because the cartridge heads pivot, people exert a lot of pressure onto the skin, almost digging the blade into the skin. Cartridges can lead to a bad shaving technique while DE razors force you to use less pressure and angle it yourself. Also, cartridges just feel tuggy and pulling on the hair vs. DE razors smoothly cutting.

 

[FoolishMortal]

Benefits of wet shaving: single vs multi blades - It could be that people buff more with the DE razors vs Cartridges. However, the big factor is not the buffing, but the amount of pressure for me. Because the cartridge heads pivot, people exert a lot of pressure onto the skin, almost digging the blade into the skin. Cartridges can lead to a bad shaving technique while DE razors force you to use less pressure and angle it yourself. Also, cartridges just feel tuggy and pulling on the hair vs. DE razors smoothly cutting.

This.

I had no end of ingrown hairs when using cartridges. As we know from the many, many discussions here, all blades are not created equally, and a cartridge blade (or three, or four, or five) is not the same as a DE blade.

I think that part of it is that the cartridge blades aren't that sharp and rely on "grabbing" the hairs with the first blade or two and then roughly sawing them off. This gives an uneven cut that is right at skin level or, worse, just under the skin.

With a DE blade, I get a sharp (based on the blade), rigid (based on the razor) blade that cuts just at the skin level. I have far fewer ingrown hairs, especially if I shave daily - something I never could do with cartridges - and I'm fully convinced that it's because I'm getting a cleaner cut that's not irritating to the follicle or encouraging the raw end of the hair to nest under the skin.

 

[samhain666]

As far the preshave goes I never used them and didn't even consider them, if soap is good enough, you don't really need it in my opinion. If point of preshave is to soften the whiskers, then benefits shoud last for 3-4 passes. If the point is to add extra gide, then I doubt it.

I will skip influence of passes to the blade, no idea how number of passes affects the blade, I use 2 blade for 3-4 shaves and change it because they just gest too dull and shaves get uncomfortable.

Irritation and number of blades and passes. Well you do make a good point here, but I must still dissagree with you.
Multi blade systems have 1 dull blade that catches the hair, tugs is out of skin a bit then next blade cuts it. It causes discomfort during shaving (tugging) and cuts the hair too close to the skin hence ingrowns. Don't get me wrong, skin type plays role here too. Hair on my neck grows completely flat to my skin and direction of growth is parallel to the jaw line (if I do a stroke from jaw down is actually across the grain). That makes my neck perfect to ingrowns. Since I switched to DE I get a few a year, compared to a lot after every shave.
There is also need for pressure for blade to cut, and user can start to use too much pressure which leads to irritation. Blades in carts are also much much duller than DE blades and they are also set at an fixed angle. With DE and SE you can change the angle to be most comfortable for your skin.
You mentioned buffing too. It is what some people would call "advanced tehnique" and shave can be comfortable and smooth without it.

Even if carts gave me the same shave I would still stick to DE. Te ritual, the feeling, THE COST

 

[BigJ]

...
Multi blade systems have 1 dull blade that catches the hair, tugs is out of skin a bit then next blade cuts it. It causes discomfort during shaving (tugging) and cuts the hair too close to the skin hence ingrowns....

There is also need for pressure for blade to cut, and user can start to use too much pressure which leads to irritation...

+1!

To address your questions as best I can:

1. My prep focus on hydration and having a slick, protective lather. I have found little benefit from preshave products, so I don’t use them.

2. I prefer 3 passes with little or no ’blade buffing.’ Using NO (actually as little as possible) pressure and an optimal blade angle I seldom experience irritation or ingrown hairs.

Just my $0.02!!

 

[emwolf]

My pre-shave consists of washing and moisturizing. My pre-shave is not to affect the lather I produce, but rather to affect my skin positively. Properly hydrated skin is flexible (something that diminishes with age). Flexible skin is less likely to tear or break. My understanding of the lather is to provide a slick, protective surface for the razor's edge to glide, not to moisturize the skin.

 

[DrPDPT]

Here's my thought on the topics.

Pre-shave - I got a couple and I use it couple times throughout the week. I don't notice a big difference after using a pre-shave soap but it feels right when I use it. It's more of a ritual for me but it's said to 'degrease' your face which kind of makes sense. It also boost the lather and possibly slickness so it doesn't hurt to use it. I've tried a shave with only the pre-shave soap and got a great shave out of it... so it's slick by itself.

3-pass shave - I don't know any studies of this in relations to the blade.

Benefits of wet shaving: single vs multi blades - It could be that people buff more with the DE razors vs Cartridges. However, the big factor is not the buffing, but the amount of pressure for me. Because the cartridge heads pivot, people exert a lot of pressure onto the skin, almost digging the blade into the skin. Cartridges can lead to a bad shaving technique while DE razors force you to use less pressure and angle it yourself. Also, cartridges just feel tuggy and pulling on the hair vs. DE razors smoothly cutting.

Mm. Some solid insight there, I never really considered that nuance before and it makes complete sense.

 

[Kyle89]

Always thought pre-shaves were pointless when I only shaved with a DE but since I’ve moved to straights, at least with my beginner technique I think it makes a huge difference in my shaves.

 

[South Dakota Guy]

Always thought pre-shaves were pointless when I only shaved with a DE but since I’ve moved to straights, at least with my beginner technique I think it makes a huge difference in my shaves.

I have nothing against pre-shaves and if you think it helps improve your shave it probably does. I always shave immediately after a hot shower and try to use a warm lather to further soften my beard for cutting. My shave scuttle finally arrived today so I anticipate lots of warm lather in the very near future.

 

[engblom]

Preshave:
I am not using any preshave but many years ago I did shave without lather, I just used running water from the shower. During this time I also experimented with different preparation and I noticed that if I take a few drips of jojoba oil (which is actually a liquid wax and not an oil), it protected my skin better and I had far less irritation. I do not know how this transfers to shaving with lather as I do not own any jojoba oil anymore, but I can imagine rubbing extra fat on the face would prevent that lather from softening the whiskers and thus affect the shaving in a negative way.

Number of passes:
The fewer passes, the longer the blade will last. I am only doing two passes: WTG and ATG. I would look decent with just a single WTG but it gives me really sharp stubble tips and it feels unpleasant.

Single blade vs multi-blade:
I do not believe there is any difference in amount of irritation. The skin will not magically dry up on the short distance between the blades. Even for a single blade the blade goes all the way down to the skin and it is not riding on lather, which is why all soap is removed by the razor. The key here is wet and slippery skin/beard and the lather is there to protect the moisture so the face is not drying up. My reason for going single blade DE is all because of less clogging and nowadays I actually save money on this too.

Stones:
I am not a SR shaver, so I do not need to sharpen my razors and thus I am not qualified to answer this one.

 

[@ngel]

I share some views already said so I won’t repeat it except for stone sharpening.

Yes there are folk actually finishing on glass or other really smooth surfaces to get the finest edge you can get but you have to take a factor into account: customization!

Straight razor shaving is very personal specially when you sharpen your straight yourself. Just like some folks like sharper DE blades, others gravitate to smooth rather than sharp etc.

So the finishing of a straight is not different: some folk prefer the sharpest edge they can get, others not so sharp, other just want a smooth finish etc, therefore different finishes on different materials.

 

[kingfisher]

Preshaves
I'm ambivalent about them. Sometimes I put a little Dr. Jon's all-purpose oil on, and sometimes I don't. I haven't noticed a huge difference.

DE versus cartridge razor irritation/exfoliation/etc.
I agree that, hypothetically anyway, having a bunch of blades should distribute the pressure better, and, in fact, I'm convinced that is the REAL purpose of multiple blades. People's shaving technique sucks, and that's a given. The razor companies know that getting people to shave in a different way is virtually impossible, so they alter the cartridge in an attempt to make up for technique deficiencies.
I think every new thing that comes out in popular cartridge razors is principally another effort by the company to cover for your shaving technique flaws:

1) Problem. People apply too much pressure when shaving. Solution? Add more blades and a large general surface area to the cartridge. This distributes the pressure over a much larger area, leading to less pain and less irritation.
2) Problem. People shave over areas multiple times without re-lathing. Solution? Add a "lube strip." Tell people it makes the razor glide better. Real reason is to lay down a slick layer of slime that will provide glide for when you invariably go back over the same area again without relathering.
3) Problem. People don't maintain the proper angle when shaving. Solution? Make the head pivot freely in all dimensions, smoothing over every technique flaw. Having a large shaving head also helps, because the user can just press it up against their face and then move the razor in any direction they want.

To directly answer the question, though: YES, I think it is a gross oversimplication to say that two passes with a 5-bladed razor equals 10 passes with a DE. It simply isn't true. Period.

The amount of irritation one gets from a DE shave versus a cartridge shave depends ALMOST ENTIRELY on the user's technique. I am convinced that a skilled DE shaver who does two light passes with the proper angle and a proper lather will get LESS irritation than Joe Blow who has no idea how to shave gets with two passes with a Fusion.

But I also agree that, in general, the Fusion or whatever multiblade cartridge you are using generally TUGS more than a clean, sharp DE or AC blade, and is thus, for me, less pleasant.

 

[dotKomo]

Pre-shaves: From what I read on the forum, it's pretty much split down the middle on those who use or eschew a pre-shave routine. For me, a hot shower with good beard hydration, followed by applying some glycerin soap, results in a smoother, less irritating shave.

Number of passes: The idea is to progressively reduce the beard with each pass. I don't know how significant blade degradation is between 1 versus 3, but DE blades are fairly inexpensive so the price difference would be negligible.

DE versus Cartridge: No doubt, at least for me, was that bad technique (or simply going through the motions) resulted in crappy shaves. It was a chore for me, and not pleasurable. Also, the high cost of cartridge blades, plus the fact that they were constantly clogged with hair/cream, was a pain. I also believe that the way multi-blade carts work (lifting and cutting the hair followed by another blade or blades) lends itself to a greater likelihood of irritation. It was also noted previously that carts also tend towards more pressure of blade on skin. Since I have honed my technique with /de shaving, I can use a cart with a pretty good result.

My two cents.

 

[Ivo4u2]

Before using pre shave soap I simply applied normal soap, let it soften the hairs. Washed soap of and reapplied the soap and started shaving. Depending my soap it worked very well.

I tried proraso pre shave cream worked the opposite like rubber.

I tried floid shave oil. As a last pass old blade solution it worked for me. But not as a pre shave!

Then I tried stirlings mentholated pre shave soap. Now this made a difference I could clearly notice. Better glide and cutting performance.

And I tried paa ice cube. Again noticeable better glide performance and cutting.

Atg wtg xtg has everything to do with the direction of your hair on your face and I would have done the same with a cart.

Carts irritate me (also due to the lubra strip). Most de and se razors not unless I am sloppy, the blade is bad or a bad match for me and that razor.
I like milder razors.
But people do push on carts might give more irritation.

I tend to take long strokes with any razor for a dfs
And if I want a complete bbs I would buff the missed spots regardless which razor type.