Spike Mystery

[LarryAndro]

I use Naniwa 1K, 3K, 5K, 8K & 12K, followed by chromium oxide, leather strop, etc. My question deals with the Naniwa hones and a new (to me) Spike razor.

Typically, I set the bevel on the 1K, and then progress thru the hones ending up at the 12K. That works well, and by the time I get to 12K, the razor is very close to shave ready. Stropping completes the process.

The Spike razor bevel was set on the 1K stone without problem. The razor was sharp after the 3K. But, seemed to become duller the further I went up the hones. By the time I was at 12K, it was duller than at 3K; unacceptably dull no matter my stropping.

I thought I was overhoning, so made sure I had no burrs and retraced my steps with fewer passes. I mixed in some spine first passes, because I have read that repairs overhoning damages. (True?)

I am not going to list every thing I tried. But, after well over one hour, in frustration, I honed on the 3K, stropped on 0.3 micron chromium oxide on balsa about 5 passes, stropped on 0.1 micron ferrous oxide on balsa about 5 passes, finishing with about 10 passes on an untreated leather strop.

And, the razor shaved great, even though even with the above desperation honing and stropping, the blade edge was not as sharp as usual.

I give up! Would someone tell me what is happening?

Maybe, asking my question another way, with the hones I have (or something similar), do you sometimes skip hones, and why? (Possibly, you skip the finer grit hones. Possibly, you skip hones in the middle.)

 

[Dharion]

I mixed in some spine first passes, because I have read that repairs overhoning damages. (True?)

Five strokes on each side of the bevel and you're good.

IMO some steels need special hones. I've got some razors which I cannot sharpen with my hone kit, too.

 

[Bacchus]

Are your higher grit hones flat?

 

[LarryAndro]

Are your higher grit hones flat?

Yes, I just lapped with the DMT325.

 

[Thebigspendur]

Well unless the razor is made of some unusual metal with strange properties as you go up in grits you should not be getting that result. So I would say it's something you are doing in your honing. Make sure the razor is flat.

 

[richmondesi]

Well unless the razor is made of some unusual metal with strange properties as you go up in grits you should not be getting that result. So I would say it's something you are doing in your honing. Make sure the razor is flat.

agreed. I have some razors that don't take my favorite kind of edge with my set of stones, but I haven't come across any that I couldn't get shave ready (yet).

As to the hone lapping, I'm of the opinion that is a bit over emphasized. I'm reminded of a quote in a gent's signature @ SRP, "Do you honestly think 100 years ago, barbers were running around like headless chickens, whining if their hone was perfectly flat?" OLD_SCHOOL.

 

[leighton]

The razor shaved great despite your protestations? Perhaps you got frustrated so much with your early testing that you started making mistakes that exascerbated the problem, instead of proceeding calmly. Razors do not get duller from the 1k stone unless you do something drastically wrong.

Lapping is drastically unimportant. I only lap to remove the swarf buildup on my stones. However, if the surface has some rough spots, then the stone needs lapping. But if its been used for razors, you can keep using it for a very long time without lapping. Check out the Dovo videos. See that escher they're using and how dished it is? Exactly.

 

[LarryAndro]

I've honed "Pakistan" razors so soft they wouldn't take a sharp edge. This Spike blade metal seemed softer to me than any other razor that I've been able to get to a shavable edge. If true, I will have to think about how differently to hone a blade that is on the softer side.

 

[FiXXXer]

I don't really know a whole lot about straights (yet) but is it possible that the Spike razor is just incapable of taking a good edge?

 

[LarryAndro]

I don't really know a whole lot about straights (yet) but is it possible that the Spike razor is just incapable of taking a good edge?

Sure, it is possible that it isn't capable of taking a good edge. In my original post, I didn't want to bog down the question too much with side points.

My thinking about the quality of the edge goes like this. Spikes are well known razors, and so this would seem to militate against poor metal. Is it compromised by rust? With microscope and visual inspection, it seems to be fine. Maybe, it's just a softer metal from the manufacturer? I've heard about good shaving, soft metal razors. Until now, I took a trust, but verify to these comments about "soft metal."

So, yes, it is quite possible the blade is marginal in ability to hold an edge. My guess is that this is not the case.

I have not given up on this razor by any means! In between other razors, I suspect that I will be honing on this razor for another week or two.

 

[leighton]

In my limited experience with soft metal razors, the metal simply folds over during the bevel setting process, so any problems with the metal being too soft *should* be apparent at the 1k stage. But thats assuming I'm correct. And the world has this tendency to keep throwing exceptions to rules at you.

 

[chess1]

In my limited experience with soft metal razors, the metal simply folds over during the bevel setting process, so any problems with the metal being too soft *should* be apparent at the 1k stage. But thats assuming I'm correct. And the world has this tendency to keep throwing exceptions to rules at you.

Sorry Leighton
i should respectfully disagree with you on this.
if blade has soft steel it will show mostly in last stage of honing. ON final finish. Edge is getting thinner so much soft steel starts to bent or some people will call it melting edge. Have you ever tried to hone NEW FROMM BLADES?

I've heard about good shaving, soft metal razors. .

I doubt it you heart above. You may hear Sheffield steel is soft and takes a good edge. Person who uses that phrase is comparing them to American hard steel blade.
Generally when you call soft steel people means Blade will not take a edge.
Lastly i Think you said Pakistani Blade is soft and that is why they don't take edge.
Actually Pakistani Blades is hard and just crumples before taking shaving edge..

I don't know how long you have sharpening blades but i am sure time will come you master all honing process.
Generally if your blade is soft and doesn't take shaving edge you add tape to back of the blade until you get edge which will satisfies you.
1 more point i am done.
Lapping final finishing stone is VERY very important.
But it depends what is your final finishing stone.
Example if your final finishing stone Some Escher which costs 400.00 and has already dished i will never lap that stone. Simple don't wanna waste any inch of expensive stone.
Resolution is if your escher is 8 inch long just use first 4 ich of it. painful but saves hone.
Now if your final finishing stone is 32.00 Chinese 12 k Please do lap it until you will get final perfect flat surface.
Final stage of the stone your edge is so fine and fragile if you use not lapped stone will damage it very easily.
hope this helps.
That is the only intention of this post.
GL

 

[leighton]

Sorry Leighton
i should respectfully disagree with you on this.
if blade has soft steel it will show mostly in last stage of honing. ON final finish. Edge is getting thinner so much soft steel starts to bent or some people will call it melting edge. Have you ever tried to hone NEW FROMM BLADES?

Are you talking about steel that is classified as "soft" like Sheffield steel sometimes is? If so, I'm talking about steel that has lost its heat treatment. That stuff is almost putty compared to hardened steel.

As for steel not quite up to the 60+ RC a razor is supposed to be at. I don't have a steel hardness tester, I wouldn't know it if I saw it. The best I could say is that "X razor won't take an edge as good as Y razor." or "X razor loses its edge quicker than Y razor."

 

[chess1]

If so, I'm talking about steel that has lost its heat treatment. That stuff is almost putty compared to hardened steel.

If you are talking about blade which temper has been changed . That is a different story.
In this case you will not be able to put shaving edge it will just broke down even 4k level. Another characteristics of that blade is they get rusty very easily.

 

[Bacchus]

Check out the Dovo videos. See that escher they're using and how dished it is? Exactly.

I think this may be a point in the lapping the stones corner...

Besides, I'm no honster, my honing sucks, just trying to suggest problems that could be causing this