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Some thoughts on the expectations of those people making the Jnat transition

I felt the need to write this little piece that it might even help one person better understand the experiences of another so that they could have a better grasp on the general situation of starting a Jnat collection, or simply wanting to make the transition away from other natural whetstones or away from synthetics altogether. I won't go on and on but here are a few things those making the transition or thinking about it might keep in mind.

(1) Having been a part of a few discussions with folks in the position I just described, I have noticed that they tend to misunderstand the factors that drive the costs of Japanese natural whetstones. At least in part, I truly think that someone used to price points derived from the average 3000-8000k synthetic, or even those buying Arkansas black, or Belgium coticles, tend to expect their money to stretch as far with Jnats regarding weight and shape. This is why, I believe, so many people end up buying poor quality Jnats to begin with and possibly being turned off to them altogether because of the bad experience.

To explain this idea further, I tend to think of buying a car, though an altogether unpleasant experience in the eyes of many, it is rather familiar to just about everyone, and serves as a good example for what you can expect when buying Jnats. How?
"Fully loaded." Ever heard someone refer to a car they just bought as "fully loaded?" Sure. You know, all the optional extras, the sun roof, AWD, GPS, superior sound system, etc. In a sense, that Coticule or synthetic stone that's a nearly perfect rectangle you take for granted and have become accustomed to in your non-Jnat world is actually not a standard feature you can expect at the price point you are used to with the cheaper natural stones and and synthetics. This expectation with new Jnat sends them crashing into a **** load of crappy stones some fraudster or fellow unfortunate is willing to unload on them, in part because they expect that $100 to buy that perfect rectangular stone. By rectangle I mean the typical 8" x 3" by 1" synthetic or 8" x 2" Coti's.
In the Jnat world this shape of stone, especially with no chips, dents, defects, or other deviations from near perfection will significantly increase the cost of a decent stone. By significant I mean it could be a difference of several hundred and in some cases thousands of dollars.

(2) Another expectation that people new to Jnats tend to have, and this is a mistake I believe, is that they only hunt for the finest grained, allegedly Awasedo, finishing stones believing every other finishing stone or Shiageto (Shiage-to?) to not be worthwhile. Many people have a strange idea that they ought to overlook Suita altogether, or that a level 4 hardness is not worthwhile but they should only acquire the hardest Nakayama stone they can find and that is that.

First, its been said by many very experienced people who use these stones regularly and have extensive experience with them or make their career out of the stones in some way, that the harder the stone the more difficult it is to use and that hard stones ought to be left until you have mastered using softer stones, which, I might add, are perfectly appropriate for honing razors. Shobu's, Mizukihara, Ohira, Ai Iwatani, Wakasa and many other mine's regions, and just damn good stones on the recommendation of a reputable seller willing to accept a return are in many cases absolutely killer stones not to be easily overlooked. I admit my favorite stone I own is an Ozuku, but that stone is exception and not typical in many ways. However, before I owned that stone, I preferred a giant green iris plate Shobudani that is considerably softer, level 4 (the Ozuku I referred to is off the chart, ridiculously hard, "katakuchi").

Second, not every hone is going to turn every razor into that magical edge. If you buy vintage razors or own more than 20 some odd razors, chances are you are likely to have a few different types of steel with different hardnesses and makeup. Some razors are a blend of several metals even, not even all carbon steel types. Armed with this fact, you might consider trying different kinds of stones, based on their finesse of grit, cutting power and other factors. A level 4 Shinden suita may simply pair better with a Sheffield that's made of silver steel than they would a typical Soligen razor, or vice versa.

(3) Those new to Jnats tend to think in practical terms, (getting from A to B as fast as possible instead of enjoying the process of honing itself).

When I was using synthetics I only thought of honing in a linear way. I was straight forward about it and considered it merely a means to an end...that end being a sharp razor that produced a fine quality shave. If this is you, go ahead and stop reading. No harm no foul. For those of us who consider the very act of honing to be an end in itself, and you are making this transition, consider that Jnats are not simply an A to B proposition, but can be much, much more complex, interesting and fun.
I tend to think of driving to the grocery store in a station wagon as the straight forward back and forth honing on a 8000K Sharp Pebble combo. Whereas honing on a Jnat is more akin to taking the Corvette out of the garage and laying some tire. In the case of the Jnat it isn't THAT we get to the grocery store, that's for those folks I asked to stop reading (I'm sure they haven't stopped), it isn't that we get there, but how we get there that gains considerable importance. If I did not care how I got there I would not need to drop the massive change on a fine chunk of Japanese mountain. For those denying this point, what's your hidden agenda? Be honest with yourself. :) I say that facetiously. But in all truth, spending $500-$1000 on a heavyweight Ozuku stone is hardly practical or frugal for that matter. Why do it if not for the thrill of the joy ride in the Corvette? Of course part of the decision is practical. After all, the quality of Jnats is simply unsurpassed and without parallel. But those new or thinking about it, someone on the fence perhaps, should consider that part of the fun of Jnats is experimenting in different ways with different tomo/toishi combinations, or simply trying new stones, something different. If I wanted to be incredibly practical and all I cared about shaving better, and nothing else, I could drop all this straight razor nonsense and start buying Gillette cartridges again. I mean, after all, if how you get to B from A wasn't important but it was merely that you got to B from A, then why bother using a considerably slower process to shave in the first place? After all, that's why you are here, because you don't like being conventional, and you like to take your time, enjoy the process and smell the roses. That's Jnats with some practical mixed in.

Anyway, thanks for reading. If you got this far, I would love to hear your comments. But please realize that I am sure someone has an exception to something I said and they are dying to respond and try to "prove me wrong," but this discussion and the exchange of intelligent views shouldn't be a "gotcha game" about who's the smartest guy in the room. It should be a team effort where we all leave better than we came in because of a mutual interest in knowledge and fellowship. Why else are you here? Ya know? :) Cheers!
 

duke762

Rose to the occasion
I think I read it here once, "There are shavers, and there are honers". I'm a honer. I enjoy honing and mastering my natural stones. I enjoy the challenges and soul, you might say, of natural hones and plain leather strops. If I was in this just for the end result, I'd certainly use synthetics and pasted strops. I bet someday I end up in Jnat land....

Great write up. A lot of what you said could apply to just about any natural hone. I go to the grocery store on Arkansas stones. It's a scenic and satisfying drive.
 
I felt the need to write this little piece that it might even help one person better understand the experiences of another so that they could have a better grasp on the general situation of starting a Jnat collection, or simply wanting to make the transition away from other natural whetstones or away from synthetics altogether. I won't go on and on but here are a few things those making the transition or thinking about it might keep in mind.

(1) Having been a part of a few discussions with folks in the position I just described, I have noticed that they tend to misunderstand the factors that drive the costs of Japanese natural whetstones. At least in part, I truly think that someone used to price points derived from the average 3000-8000k synthetic, or even those buying Arkansas black, or Belgium coticles, tend to expect their money to stretch as far with Jnats regarding weight and shape. This is why, I believe, so many people end up buying poor quality Jnats to begin with and possibly being turned off to them altogether because of the bad experience.

To explain this idea further, I tend to think of buying a car, though an altogether unpleasant experience in the eyes of many, it is rather familiar to just about everyone, and serves as a good example for what you can expect when buying Jnats. How?
"Fully loaded." Ever heard someone refer to a car they just bought as "fully loaded?" Sure. You know, all the optional extras, the sun roof, AWD, GPS, superior sound system, etc. In a sense, that Coticule or synthetic stone that's a nearly perfect rectangle you take for granted and have become accustomed to in your non-Jnat world is actually not a standard feature you can expect at the price point you are used to with the cheaper natural stones and and synthetics. This expectation with new Jnat sends them crashing into a **** load of crappy stones some fraudster or fellow unfortunate is willing to unload on them, in part because they expect that $100 to buy that perfect rectangular stone. By rectangle I mean the typical 8" x 3" by 1" synthetic or 8" x 2" Coti's.
In the Jnat world this shape of stone, especially with no chips, dents, defects, or other deviations from near perfection will significantly increase the cost of a decent stone. By significant I mean it could be a difference of several hundred and in some cases thousands of dollars.

(2) Another expectation that people new to Jnats tend to have, and this is a mistake I believe, is that they only hunt for the finest grained, allegedly Awasedo, finishing stones believing every other finishing stone or Shiageto (Shiage-to?) to not be worthwhile. Many people have a strange idea that they ought to overlook Suita altogether, or that a level 4 hardness is not worthwhile but they should only acquire the hardest Nakayama stone they can find and that is that.

First, its been said by many very experienced people who use these stones regularly and have extensive experience with them or make their career out of the stones in some way, that the harder the stone the more difficult it is to use and that hard stones ought to be left until you have mastered using softer stones, which, I might add, are perfectly appropriate for honing razors. Shobu's, Mizukihara, Ohira, Ai Iwatani, Wakasa and many other mine's regions, and just damn good stones on the recommendation of a reputable seller willing to accept a return are in many cases absolutely killer stones not to be easily overlooked. I admit my favorite stone I own is an Ozuku, but that stone is exception and not typical in many ways. However, before I owned that stone, I preferred a giant green iris plate Shobudani that is considerably softer, level 4 (the Ozuku I referred to is off the chart, ridiculously hard, "katakuchi").

Second, not every hone is going to turn every razor into that magical edge. If you buy vintage razors or own more than 20 some odd razors, chances are you are likely to have a few different types of steel with different hardnesses and makeup. Some razors are a blend of several metals even, not even all carbon steel types. Armed with this fact, you might consider trying different kinds of stones, based on their finesse of grit, cutting power and other factors. A level 4 Shinden suita may simply pair better with a Sheffield that's made of silver steel than they would a typical Soligen razor, or vice versa.

(3) Those new to Jnats tend to think in practical terms, (getting from A to B as fast as possible instead of enjoying the process of honing itself).

When I was using synthetics I only thought of honing in a linear way. I was straight forward about it and considered it merely a means to an end...that end being a sharp razor that produced a fine quality shave. If this is you, go ahead and stop reading. No harm no foul. For those of us who consider the very act of honing to be an end in itself, and you are making this transition, consider that Jnats are not simply an A to B proposition, but can be much, much more complex, interesting and fun.
I tend to think of driving to the grocery store in a station wagon as the straight forward back and forth honing on a 8000K Sharp Pebble combo. Whereas honing on a Jnat is more akin to taking the Corvette out of the garage and laying some tire. In the case of the Jnat it isn't THAT we get to the grocery store, that's for those folks I asked to stop reading (I'm sure they haven't stopped), it isn't that we get there, but how we get there that gains considerable importance. If I did not care how I got there I would not need to drop the massive change on a fine chunk of Japanese mountain. For those denying this point, what's your hidden agenda? Be honest with yourself. :) I say that facetiously. But in all truth, spending $500-$1000 on a heavyweight Ozuku stone is hardly practical or frugal for that matter. Why do it if not for the thrill of the joy ride in the Corvette? Of course part of the decision is practical. After all, the quality of Jnats is simply unsurpassed and without parallel. But those new or thinking about it, someone on the fence perhaps, should consider that part of the fun of Jnats is experimenting in different ways with different tomo/toishi combinations, or simply trying new stones, something different. If I wanted to be incredibly practical and all I cared about shaving better, and nothing else, I could drop all this straight razor nonsense and start buying Gillette cartridges again. I mean, after all, if how you get to B from A wasn't important but it was merely that you got to B from A, then why bother using a considerably slower process to shave in the first place? After all, that's why you are here, because you don't like being conventional, and you like to take your time, enjoy the process and smell the roses. That's Jnats with some practical mixed in.

Anyway, thanks for reading. If you got this far, I would love to hear your comments. But please realize that I am sure someone has an exception to something I said and they are dying to respond and try to "prove me wrong," but this discussion and the exchange of intelligent views shouldn't be a "gotcha game" about who's the smartest guy in the room. It should be a team effort where we all leave better than we came in because of a mutual interest in knowledge and fellowship. Why else are you here? Ya know? :) Cheers!

I've come to understand that regardless of the oft made statement that stones take time to learn, the idea that some stones don't work and some razors won't sharpen the same as others can lead to insanity, or the idea that doing the same thing over and over while expecting differing results to emerge is insanity. That's probably why stones and razors are discarded and we tend to use the medium and razor that gives the best shave. It would seem to me to make more economical sense to use a medium with a predictable or known grit quality.
 
I think I read it here once, "There are shavers, and there are honers". I'm a honer. I enjoy honing and mastering my natural stones. I enjoy the challenges and soul, you might say, of natural hones and plain leather strops. If I was in this just for the end result, I'd certainly use synthetics and pasted strops. I bet someday I end up in Jnat land....

Great write up. A lot of what you said could apply to just about any natural hone. I go to the grocery store on Arkansas stones. It's a scenic and satisfying drive.

I agree and it appears the quality of the shave is often not considered. Usually if someone says their shave is off, the blame is on the honer and not the stone or razor. The OP admits this point that not all stones and razors work well.

It would be a shame to have hundreds of dollars invested on a medium or razor than won't work.
 
A lot of good info Pokeystotle.
- Talking with a major Jnat dealer who resides in Australia, he said that Jnats are priced like gems. The more perfect cut, no flaws etc will increase the price exponentially. Price doesn't equate best razor finisher as not all Jnats are razor stones. Some are good for knives, some for chisels etc. but if you find a great finisher in perfect cut and flawless, yeah it's gonna cost.
- Yes different steels do better with different stones. In my experience for example I find the stainless razors I have to do better with somewhat softer stones instead of the super hard ones. Again everybody is different but that's what my face/skin tell me.
 
I have made a thread about this before, but I'll repeat myself a little bit here because I think there is good info here.
There is a Japanese measurement called "reezaa" ect (レーザー razor, old spelling of it) and this is referring to the stones size and not its capability to give a razor a good finish. Think of it as "stone sized for razors"
 
Great comments on Jnats. Ive recently got into them and Im finding that the end results, if using a Jnat, Thuri, synthetic is not much different. A to B. I agree that its more of how you got to the end. Thank you for this. It does help explain why for some folks they should just stick with synthetic stones. If all you care about is getting that keen and smooth edge as fast as you can, then NATs are really not what you should be buying.

Im at this point in my honing. Some days i just want to knock out a good edge and be done. Other days i want to play in the mud!
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Maybe I can add to the discussion a little. I’ve been doing jnats for well over 10 years and razor honing for 10, most all of it with Japanese naturals, but I do have and use synths, cotis, and a Thuringian.

All other things equal, jnat cost goes up almost exponentially with size. It’s hard to believe that a full bench, 207x75 stone will bring 2-3x what a 60 cut 190x70 will bring but it will. After size, color is probably the biggest factor, again all other things equal. A pretty yellow or multicolored stone will bring 10x or more what a bland grey one will, if the size is large. After that it’s kind of a mish mash of purity, regularity, thickness, whatever.

I don’t think that beginners hesitate to spend more than they would on a synth or coti within reason, it’s because they don’t understand what they’re buying, what factors are driving the cost. At least that’s the way I was. BTW, almost none of the factors driving cost have anything to do with how good a razor hone it is. My cheapest 2% jnat cost $26, and it puts a super smooth edge on a razor as well as stones costing 100x more. And there are collector’s jnats. Recently a NOS wooden-boxed full size stone went for about $4k, the stone had Hatahoshi (my avatar) and maru-ka stamps, and the box had Hatanaka-San’s signature. This is not a stone to use, image attached. I’ve seen thick ones go for $6k, and this is on Yahoo where there’s no return option.

Unfortunately the only real way to find the truly exceptional jnats is to try them, and about 1 out of 10 is special, if you know what to look for when buying. Same for cotis I think, the high dollar beauty is no more likely to be a razor hone than the ugly duckling. You just have to try them. When I found my first special razor jnat, I’d been honing razors about a year, still an amateur, and one day just decided that I wanted a new stone (didn’t need one, see the following paragraph). So I find a nice Nakayama kan pattern koppa on Takeshi’s site and boom, I have a stone on the way. I lapped it and honed one up. I was shaving with it and there was no tactile feel at all, it didn’t feel like anything much, couldn’t feel the edge cut, etc. So I put it in the drawer and went on fooling around with my other stones, knives, and razors, but in a couple of days it dawned on me: that’s what it’s supposed to feel like, a velvet squeegee. So I set out to find more of them or determine that I had an anomaly (I didn’t, but they’re uncommon). You can also do one stone honing with a good jnat, something that you can’t do with anything else but a coticule.

This is where the difference between a honer and a shaver shows up. If you just want to knock out a fine shave with bang for the buck, there’s no need to go to naturals, there are multiple cost-effective synths, films, and pastes that will do a fine job. The best natural edges are to me, better and smoother but not enough to justify the cost if you’re a shaver and not a honer. When I was 6 years old, my dad gave me my first pocketknife, a small Boker penknife - still have it BTW, it managed to survive my childhood. Anyway, I asked him ‘How do you sharpen it?’ He showed me an Arkansas stone that he had, and I said, ‘You mean that’s a rock someone dug out of the ground and you can sharpen a knife with it?’ And I’ve been a honer ever since.

Attachments: a $4,000 hone and a $26 hone. I’d bet the $26 hone is a better razor hone, but not $3,974.


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People tend to want black and white but there's more shades of grey to deal with actually.

Going to Jnats really shouldn't be viewed as a 'transition'. It's more like an extension, or a broadening of one's perspective. Not so much a step up as it is 'another step'.

So many think that Jants are a magic bullet and they will make their edges sing. They won't do that unless you know how to make your edges sing off a Jnat. Spending 1k on a stone doesn't guarantee you a 1k edge. Trying to enumerate or qualify the 'worth' of a Jnat via price vs the task at hand vs whatever... all of that way of thinking indicates not understanding the system.

A lot goes into evaluating any natural stone. The world of Jnats adds many variables/factors/considerations to the mix though. There are many subtle 'degrees' of things that are not present in, say - Arkansas stones. Plus, people want a cheap stone to be as good as an expensive one. Sometimes that happens but usually when it does there are other factors involved; like, for example a cheap stone is great to hone on today but after the 4th or 5th lapping a toxic seam of something appears out of nowhere. Or that bargain hone just falls apart. Yes, those things happen. They do, trust me on that.

With Jnats, some self-appointed gurus will say one particular quality matters, or another thing doesn't matter. One guy says stamps matter, another points out that the majority of stamped stones for sale in the west are dressed that way for the tourist trade and the stamps are, for the most part, horsepucky. And so it goes. Confusion is a wonderful tool for the unscrupulous seller, they are constantly barking about the magical and mystical wonderment that their stones have to offer. It's no wonder that there are so many unrealistic expectations in the minds of new users, those storylines were put in their heads by people trying to keep those that are looking for a magic bullet believing that there is one. FWIW - there is no magic bullet.

Yes, size and cut and shape matter to price. A few other factors are the presence of layers and how they are formed, presence of Kawa, type of Kawa, 'feel' of the stone itself, look patterns, and there are many more considerations along those lines. Finally, you have stone performance, which adds in tactile considerations, refinement capability, and a few other similar traits. Hardness is part of things but hardness on it's own doesn't mean spit. Because of that, It is possible to have an irregular Koppa that looks like dung selling for more than a couple of morgage payments. You can also have a perfect 8x3x1 that sells for a song. And everything in between.

Lets not forget that someone's 'meh' $150 stone maybe someone else's heirloom. And that someone else might try a $1k stone and not 'get it'.... it happens. Price, cost, value, skill sets, and preferences - they all don't always line up correctly.

It's not a linear equation, there are a lot of very expensive Jnats that aren't great razor hones. There are a lot of cheap stones that can make stellar edges. There are lots of high-end stones that are killer razor hones, some are big, others are small, and some are irregular Koppa of various sizes and shapes. There is also a ton of cheap junk stone being sold as 'finishers' that should be used for landfill or paperweights.
Some people are willing to compromise, others are not. Some are willing to truly learn, and others are not.
And so it goes.
 
I think I read it here once, "There are shavers, and there are honers". I'm a honer. I enjoy honing and mastering my natural stones. I enjoy the challenges and soul, you might say, of natural hones and plain leather strops. If I was in this just for the end result, I'd certainly use synthetics and pasted strops. I bet someday I end up in Jnat land....

Great write up. A lot of what you said could apply to just about any natural hone. I go to the grocery store on Arkansas stones. It's a scenic and satisfying drive.


Thank you!

I think you make a good point. There are shavers and there are honers. I love the process itself. I think of taking my car out and driving for the sake of driving itself. Hitting the turns, blasting some metal, (whatever your poison), and letting the air hit my face. In this instance I'm not even considering where I am going, or that I am getting there. Yeah, I should not just say other natural stones are not the same - but I do consider the comparative value of stones.

Some people have the Arkansas stone, the Amazon 'Tsushima' and the some Chinese natural emerald stones and that is all they have. That is fine, BUT....how does their opinion compare with the folks that have the stones I've listed PLUS the crazy expensive stones like the Nakayama's and Ozuku's and fine Suita's? I've got these plus the others. I'm in a position to compare the two. I could just be happy and not tell anyone and hone away for the rest of my life and not really care what anyone else does - believe me, I think about doing just that every day.

In the end, all I really wanted was to help others avoid mistakes I made on my way to where I am now, later, and I am not really shaving better, though I didn't really buy these stones for that reason in the first place, why would I NEED (as opposed to want) 40 whetstones for just shaving in the first place?
 
I've come to understand that regardless of the oft made statement that stones take time to learn, the idea that some stones don't work and some razors won't sharpen the same as others can lead to insanity, or the idea that doing the same thing over and over while expecting differing results to emerge is insanity. That's probably why stones and razors are discarded and we tend to use the medium and razor that gives the best shave. It would seem to me to make more economical sense to use a medium with a predictable or known grit quality.

I'm assuming you are familiar with the one definition of insanity which is (paraphrasing) "to do the same thing over and over and expect different results."

Economical sense? That is definitely one way to be involved. I mean, money is always part of my decisions when I buy a stone, but I tend to make the money a factor based on what I think is a fair amount for what it is I am buying. If I'm buying a finishing Shobu closing in on 3 kilograms from a reputable seller that I have had good experience with in the past I would consider 'economical sense' to mean something entirely different in that case. In that case maybe 'economical sense' is spending between $600-$900. I have a reputable dealer, which is worth something right there, and I have a fine stone that will retain its value, there is a lot of stone (nearly 3 kg) and it has a brand, trademark, or reputation that tends to (I am not saying it should but let's be honest...it does increase value) increase the value of the piece I am buying. Maybe I misunderstood you a bit. But you seem to fall into the "shaver" category instead of the "honer" one, which is the one I fall into. I mean, I love a good shave, I have about ten straight razors in a rotation that are all honed and I strop for shaving when I am ready, but these razors are not something I hone often. In fact, I hone on about 200 other razors, between kamisori and straight razors all in a variety of conditions, plus the five testing razors I have for hones. So generally, when I'm speaking of stones, I'm speaking about honing and the process of it, how it changes the steel I am using on it and so forth. Not really whether you'll like the shave you get, since there are so many variables like beards, thickness of beard, coarseness, steel types, skin types, shaving soaps, stropping technique, and equipment....all of which seem to factor into how the shave actually comes out.
 
Great comments on Jnats. Ive recently got into them and Im finding that the end results, if using a Jnat, Thuri, synthetic is not much different. A to B. I agree that its more of how you got to the end. Thank you for this. It does help explain why for some folks they should just stick with synthetic stones. If all you care about is getting that keen and smooth edge as fast as you can, then NATs are really not what you should be buying.

Im at this point in my honing. Some days i just want to knock out a good edge and be done. Other days i want to play in the mud!


Absolutely! Often it isn't that we don't know what to say, or what to think, but finding a way to articulate what we want to say or think is the hard part. I must say, I did not come up with this kind of argument, it was something I picked up over all the time I spend reading philosophy books. Beware, you can go insane! LOL. Especially reading Hegelian philosophy.

If all you (by 'you' I mean plural 'yins, ya'll' 'yous,' :) ) are looking at is results then that synthetic is a great stone and its value could be something a Jnat cannot replace. However, I know for one, I would not even hone if it weren't for Jnats. One reason is that Jnats hold their value even after being used for some considerable time. I know of no synthetics that hold their value in such a way. I also simply don't find that the synthetics even have a feedback remotely close to being as enjoyable as any Jnat does. Also, yes, I know people are happy with cubic zirconia, but something about the natural formation and the ancient stone or rock being put together by many chance chemical and physical actions, heat, pressure, time and the like, this process is so interesting. Synthetics just don't have any of that. There are folks here that can articulate what I am saying here (about the scientific process(es)) considerably better than I can, but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
 
You can also do one stone honing with a good jnat, something that you can’t do with anything else but a coticule.

When I first started taking a serious look at honing I decided I wanted to get a stone I could use start to finish. Before that I had a few synthetics that were sub par and one good finishing synthetic.

I spent a lot of time on coti.be and decided that I would go the coti route. The way they lay out the process made it very straight forward to me. I was always interested in jnats but the names and the process seemed a bit too complicated at the time to wrap my head around. So needless to say I picked up a coti or two and was happy to hone my razors on them and got great shaves from them for many years.

Fast forward to a few months ago, I started reading more about jnats. I became more curious about them and wanted to experiment with them just to compare the edges. It helped that jns had a sale and I had some extra funds so I bought two jnat and a set of nagura to experiment with. The jnats needed a little experiment with slurries and dilutions but I was able to get some very nice and sharp edges with mine. I’m still learning and experimenting with them but I can honestly say I wish I got a jnat Sooner. If there was a website called jnat.jp or whatever the equivalent to coti.be would be I would have been on there learning all I could.

The nagura progression on one stone is something I’m starting to really enjoy. I like being able to stick to the one stone that I know and just have to navigate the different nagura.



Of course here are the obligatory pics of my cotis and my jnats.

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I'm assuming you are familiar with the one definition of insanity which is (paraphrasing) "to do the same thing over and over and expect different results."

Economical sense? That is definitely one way to be involved. I mean, money is always part of my decisions when I buy a stone, but I tend to make the money a factor based on what I think is a fair amount for what it is I am buying. If I'm buying a finishing Shobu closing in on 3 kilograms from a reputable seller that I have had good experience with in the past I would consider 'economical sense' to mean something entirely different in that case. In that case maybe 'economical sense' is spending between $600-$900. I have a reputable dealer, which is worth something right there, and I have a fine stone that will retain its value, there is a lot of stone (nearly 3 kg) and it has a brand, trademark, or reputation that tends to (I am not saying it should but let's be honest...it does increase value) increase the value of the piece I am buying. Maybe I misunderstood you a bit. But you seem to fall into the "shaver" category instead of the "honer" one, which is the one I fall into. I mean, I love a good shave, I have about ten straight razors in a rotation that are all honed and I strop for shaving when I am ready, but these razors are not something I hone often. In fact, I hone on about 200 other razors, between kamisori and straight razors all in a variety of conditions, plus the five testing razors I have for hones. So generally, when I'm speaking of stones, I'm speaking about honing and the process of it, how it changes the steel I am using on it and so forth. Not really whether you'll like the shave you get, since there are so many variables like beards, thickness of beard, coarseness, steel types, skin types, shaving soaps, stropping technique, and equipment....all of which seem to factor into how the shave actually comes out.

Since that is what I wrote, I am indeed familiar.

Yes, I realize you and others are not honing to shave, but most folks who want to use a SR to shave are only interesting in the shave result.
 
I love threads like this because they keep the prices on Cotis and Arks in check while loads of JNATs cost upwards of .75 Chevrolets.

A lot of your analysis is honest and spot on though. The JNAT midrange and “pre-finisher” stones will always go unappreciated. My favorite stone in my collection is probably the giant Tsushima black nagura, and nobody on these razor forums even seems to give it a curious glance. I know the JNAT guys will say something about blah blah Iwasaki blah blah blah... ok yeah, but... he didn’t say it’s a bad stone he basically said don’t disregard the white nagura, the right progression is perfect. If you want to quote Iwasaki at me I’ll point out he also said Koma is the marginally finer Botan, but apparently it’s cool to ignore that part like modern churchgoers gloss over Leviticus. I’m team TBN for life.
 
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