I notice the same thing...I am guessing it's due to the fact that larger particles are released with the DMT than with a tomo...Plus the DMT kinda 'roughs up' the surface of the awase, while a tomo tends to 'smooth it out'...Am I way off or is that sort of what happens?
Softer Japanese Naturals are for Razors too.
- Thread starter alx gilmore
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I notice the same thing...I am guessing it's due to the fact that larger particles are released with the DMT than with a tomo...Plus the DMT kinda 'roughs up' the surface of the awase, while a tomo tends to 'smooth it out'...Am I way off or is that sort of what happens?
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I think part of it is that with a diamond plate, you get more slurry if you're not careful to not get more slurry.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
Making do with what's on hand is a necessity, at least in the short term.
I'll opt for a softer Tomo over a DN any day, unless a softer Tomo isn't available.
Or a larger Tomo;, more surface area can work faster in some instances.
But for super hard stones, a softer Tomo is my ticket. I'm never comfortable uning a DN, even an Atoma.
I'll opt for a softer Tomo over a DN any day, unless a softer Tomo isn't available.
Or a larger Tomo;, more surface area can work faster in some instances.
But for super hard stones, a softer Tomo is my ticket. I'm never comfortable uning a DN, even an Atoma.
It appears that way.I have an oohira suita that i use with light dmt slurry and that bad boy cuts very fast! I cut a corner off to get a tomo out of it and its much faster with the dmt. I have finished with the oohira but its a good smooth coti like edge, i like something keener.
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Oh I agree; my uber-hard Ozuku does VERY well when I use a much softer Kiita tomo with it...I went thru a lot of work trying to find a tomo that would play well with the Ozuku...Then Nick (Disburden) recommended a Kiita tomo, so that's what I went with...works excellent actually!
The DN thing is just something I'm playing with ATM....if possible, I would definitely prefer to use a Tomo....
A really good Kita Tomo is not only rare, it's almost a blessing That's worthy of a shrine.
I don't know why, but a lot of Kita stone sold as Tomos are just meh.
Great shave today. Seems the pressure coaxed some faster steel removal. 2 pass and touchup. Perfect. I will spend some time with this stone and see what I find. I was almost ready to write it off as a good stone but too slow. Very zippy almost wicked sharp edge as I like but smooth. Its not a shave I havent gotten from this stone already but the pressure being the only different factor made the difference in the time it took anyway.
Just ordered 8 different tomos in all flavors. I will hone a few and instead of using pressure as I did with the example above, I will use very fast low pressure 2 handed heel leading half strokes. (I have a good handle on the stroke) to coax the breakdown of the slurry and will refresh each slurry 2 x and tomo 2x as well from botan and up but no tenjou(redundant I think). I should have my tomos next week so that will add to the mix.
Im coming to some early conclusions on some things. It seems that a harder stone can be very useful with dmt slurry and different naguras or tomos. Ive been playing with my shuobodani(the full size one) and yesterday decided to try working a botan slurry asa finisher after some dmt slurry. It was an ok shave, today I did the same but added koma on top of the slurry(different blade) and it was a very good shave. Softer than I get from 2 TB tomos on the shubo. So maybe a harder stone is more useful as you have the option of taking it up all the way so to speak, or using nagura combos to get you to a softer edge but very quickly.
I just scored a Irimonish Nakayama Tomo that's amazing, it's soft (LV3-4, closer to 3) but extremely fine. Luckily I had a bunch of razors come in for honing so I got to experiment and test it thoroughly. I'll post a picture later, I was able to square it up (a la Tsushima Tomo) and seal with black urushi.
As far as DMTs and Atoma, old-school Japanese don't like or use them so I've chosen not to use them as well. You do however do use mini-DMTs at lower grits, namely on my Striped Iyoto, JNS 1K and occasionally on the Norton 4K. Creating slurry on the Iyoto with its Tomo takes forever. All this stuff is subjective, do what works best for you.
As far as DMTs and Atoma, old-school Japanese don't like or use them so I've chosen not to use them as well. You do however do use mini-DMTs at lower grits, namely on my Striped Iyoto, JNS 1K and occasionally on the Norton 4K. Creating slurry on the Iyoto with its Tomo takes forever. All this stuff is subjective, do what works best for you.
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I use extremely hard stones often. My first Jnat was uber hard actually.
They have, and still do work extremely well.
This is not hot breaking news.
One caveat - if the stone in question is only very hard, and without other redeeming qualities - we call that a door stop.
They have, and still do work extremely well.
This is not hot breaking news.
One caveat - if the stone in question is only very hard, and without other redeeming qualities - we call that a door stop.
I've gotten rid of most of my crazy hard stones, I now seek a particular feel which leads me to stones somewhere between LV 4+ and 5. I have no issues honing on uber hard stones, I just prefer the edges I get from the non-uber hard stones I've acquired. The people I hone for like the edges as well. I've also found that as my touch has developed I get more out of these types of stones.
I can hone on Tsushima all day.
I can hone on Tsushima all day.
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
+1 for the "not so über hard" stones. My experience too.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
Yes I know hard is only one quality and Im not claiming headline news. Just sharing what I found in what Im doing and the differences in the final edge coming off very hard stones with different approaches. I know, you guys have been saying that all along. The tomos I got recently are also producing very differently. So with 12 tomos, that creates that many more possibilities. So if I have a few AHA moments, that is why. Different technique, different edge, same stone.
I just wanted to thank the OPer, and revive this thread! I am pretty new to JNATS, and I am enjoying my little collection of them.
I stumbled across an eBay listing for a soft JNAT where the lister claimed the stone to be very soft and the slurry to be extremely fine. The lister also claimed that the razor edges were better than any yellow green Escher edge he had ever experienced...providing a keener edge and more comfortable shaving experience. Since I am new, and thought a good JNAT finisher needed to be hard, I was skeptical, and found this thread.
So I took a shot on this wedge shaped JNAT with a hard Tomo Nagura included. Well the seller wasn’t fooling around...the stone released a ton of extremely fine slurry easily, and Iwent from a 12k Naniwa Super Stone to this anomaly. I created a rich creamy fine slurry, and it felt like honing on slick wet velvet. It was quite enjoyable. I would dilute with a spray of water every 10-15 laps, until it was just water, and my finishing laps were under a slow steady stream of water at the sink.
The initial result. Today’s shave was tops with the Filarmonica Especial. I had zero redness, and I did a fourth pass just because I was having so much fun, and to see how I did. The full singing hollow was silent removing the lather from my face.
I am very happy I took a shot on this soft stone, and look forward to getting to know it better!
Vr
Matt
I stumbled across an eBay listing for a soft JNAT where the lister claimed the stone to be very soft and the slurry to be extremely fine. The lister also claimed that the razor edges were better than any yellow green Escher edge he had ever experienced...providing a keener edge and more comfortable shaving experience. Since I am new, and thought a good JNAT finisher needed to be hard, I was skeptical, and found this thread.
So I took a shot on this wedge shaped JNAT with a hard Tomo Nagura included. Well the seller wasn’t fooling around...the stone released a ton of extremely fine slurry easily, and Iwent from a 12k Naniwa Super Stone to this anomaly. I created a rich creamy fine slurry, and it felt like honing on slick wet velvet. It was quite enjoyable. I would dilute with a spray of water every 10-15 laps, until it was just water, and my finishing laps were under a slow steady stream of water at the sink.
The initial result. Today’s shave was tops with the Filarmonica Especial. I had zero redness, and I did a fourth pass just because I was having so much fun, and to see how I did. The full singing hollow was silent removing the lather from my face.
I am very happy I took a shot on this soft stone, and look forward to getting to know it better!
Vr
Matt
Yes softer stones can make great edges and ultimately I find those of the finest grit in a softer format to be my prefered choice. You just probably don't want the stone to self slurry under razor pressure. It always comes down to how fine the stone is though. I would say lv4 and up, but this is relative to your own mental scale. Which I think I need to go back and reassess in my own mind. Just had this conversation with a fellow member and even though I feel like my latest stone is at the end of the scale that actually makes no sense to me because there are harder stones. It is definitely on the harder side as raising slurry and water absorption has proven. Problem is that basing my scale from the stones I own and what they were sold as i feel like the top hardness rating lv it too large. I do not like skating rinks to hone on. I want the honing sensation to feel alive. Also when you get toward the other end of the scale where some people may call it a mid range stone the edges get more of a coticule type feel, but a bit sharper. Some of this comes down to preference, practice and individual honing style.
This is the stone slurried...seller’s photos! It was just a real pleasure to hone upon, and the resultant edge...excellent.
How does one find out the hardness of a stone, after the stamps are gone? I know that we can measure the hardness of steel I hrc-tests or whatever, but say that, without a reference point, how do I determine the hardness level of my natural stone from japan? I know that my Belgian stones can be "fast" or have some other more or less subjective trait. But when someone talks about stamps that mean something, but then again they kinda don't mean that much at all, goes on and talk about stones and describe them in a way that sounds like out of the scientology manual(don't get mad, I love you. it just sounds that way to me) how do I check the information?
OK. Say that I buy from a "reputable seller" an indeed I get the good stuff. How do I, without taking a leap of faith, know what level 5++++?
I mean somebody has got to come to that conclusion. I get it he's a pro, has used more stones than a bricklayer and is able to hear what stone is honing what type of steel blindfolded inside a dark room. Sometimes it's like when Remo had to get inside that ship to save so body, and instead of running to the entrance and taking the stairs, he just punches right thru the ships hull.
I'm sorry for ranting guys, but I just don't get it.
It's frustrating to not understand the knowledge.
Please enlighten me.
OK. Say that I buy from a "reputable seller" an indeed I get the good stuff. How do I, without taking a leap of faith, know what level 5++++?
I mean somebody has got to come to that conclusion. I get it he's a pro, has used more stones than a bricklayer and is able to hear what stone is honing what type of steel blindfolded inside a dark room. Sometimes it's like when Remo had to get inside that ship to save so body, and instead of running to the entrance and taking the stairs, he just punches right thru the ships hull.
I'm sorry for ranting guys, but I just don't get it.
It's frustrating to not understand the knowledge.
Please enlighten me.
