Sniping on eBay...There must be tricks I don't know.

[Tester28]

How so?

Im partly kidding...some great info that should help anyone trying to acquire what they
want...if they want it badly enough.

 

[Twelvefret]

Im partly kidding...some great info that should help anyone trying to acquire what they
want...if they want it badly enough.

Okay, got it!!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

It's easy to answer that there's no such thing as overpricing, there's just a market price based on what the customers are willing to pay, but that statement is a bit pompous and kills the discussion and hence needs to be refined.Customer are willing to pay a premium for

• Higher quality. If I think that a product has higher quality I'm prepared to pay a higher price. I'd never pay as much for a Gold Dollar razor as I have for a Koraat.
• Reduced risk. If I don't know enough about the product I'm buying it's safer to buy what everyone else favours. I want a Swedish razor but I haven't the foggiest idea of which brand to pick, but most people seem to like Heljestrand so Heljestrand it is.
• Higher status. I might not know if a Dorko truly is a better razor than a Dovo, but people seem to be impressed by them.
• Better design. Besides most Dorko razors are truly beautiful.

There's no linearity in the cost/benefit effects aspects described above. If you do a blind buy you might end up with getting far more for your money. "Made in Solingen" most likely will give more bang for the buck than "Puma". The .Puma will most likely shave you better but it might not shave you five times better. So the reasons for what people are willing to pay are complex and has little to do with financial rationality. If it had no business would pay for brand marketing.

One factor I haven't mentioned is the relative cost. If buying even the most expensive razors won't make a noticeable dent in my wallet why should I go for less?

I'm not always rational, few of us are. I always do my weekly grocery shopping in the super market where I know that I'll get the best price for a quality that is fully acceptable, but I drive there in a car that stole my heart and my wallet. Rationality must always come first, but sometimes it can be rational to follow your heart if it doesn't endanger your financial situation.

So as I started this post: There's no such thing as overpricing, there's just a market price based on what the customers are willing to pay,

Very nice post.

Mostly I agree. Perhaps there's a better way to describe brands of razors that are typically called "overpriced." Perhaps "overvalued?" Excessively popular? In the marketplace the only votes counted are dollars, so who is to say?

I've learned a lot thinking about the various matters discussed here and by attempting to apply them to get what I want on eBay while also avoiding paying too very much.

As I see it there's considerable downside (mostly emotional) in losing a razor one really wants. There's an obvious solution, but it carries its own risk. There is a price which will seem too high regardless of how much one wanted the razor. That price will be paid when the obvious solution is simultaneously employed by a competitor who wants the razor almost but not quite as much.

In a sense we're dealing here with items which are subjectively valuable.

I'm not being critical of eBay's bidding system, but, unlike other auctions I've attended and participated in the end is both sudden and, though the magic of the digital world, extended. Imagine going to a live auction where everyone bids as usual. Once the live auction is over, the auctioneer opens sealed envelopes which have additional bids. These bids are accepted and one of them may win, but there's no way to know what's in the envelopes until the live auction has ended. To win against sealed bids, one must submit a sealed bid hoping to beat known unknown bids.

Again, not being critical, but it's an interesting system and a difficult game if one is trying to win a given auction without paying so much that buyer's remorse is a real possibility.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

Oh, no there's absolutely "overpriced". When Charnleys spiked up to $300+ each despite the fact that seemingly every garage in the UK has a stockpile of the things because one "honemeister" said they're his favorite razor finisher... they were overpriced. When a warped W&B that's 1" at one point and 6/8" at most of the blade due to horrible honing and heavy restoration sells for $400 because there's this crazy iconic idea of the W&B "Chopper" @ 8/8" as some kind of white whale razor while a 13/16" JoSmith in great condition sells for 1/10th of that, that's an example of overpriced.

People buy Apple products en mass, even though they charge $1000 for a monitor stand. Doesn't mean Apple products aren't overpriced.


Dorko's are another great example. There are a dozen razor makers out there that you couldn't distinguish from a Dorko if the marks were erased... but Dorko's got the right press from the right people (probably youtube shaving personalities or something, I really don't know who talked Dorko's up into their astronomical price point, that seems as likely as anything), and now you can't touch any even halfway decent one without going well into the triple figures. Not saying they aren't good razors, just like Puma's are good razors, Philarms are good razors, Bergs are good razors. The thing is though, they're not really any better than a hundred other makers that you can buy for 10-50% as much. 99% of getting a "good" vintage razor is getting one that time and (more importantly) previous honers haven't damaged yet. Beyond that, it's finding the right geometry and steel... which outside of poorly made razors (rare in vintages), is personal preference.

 

[kcb5150]

Thing is, when stuff gets hot and spikes it is a lie detector and stuff quickly returns to equilibrium if it is accessible enough. Look at the massive vintage gillette de bell curve for instance. I actually think vintage gillettes are due to creep up again as they have badly dried up in the wild. Charnleys got stupid, overcorrected in the flood of shorts to excessive lows and now they are where they should be. The coticule market pretty much goes relative to what ardennes is yanking out of the ground and whether it is interesting. Salm rocks are ridiculously overpriced bit that is more no coti is worth that vs the fact you don't see many. And big choppers have somewhat corrected for the more typical ones. Corrected by hundreds of dollars actually. People want what they want though. I have shooed unsolicited 4 digit offers on a few different choppers of mine ppl saw on forums. I think the most over the top was $1500 for a 10/8 anchor tang butcher. The deep end is always going to be the deep end.

 

[seattleshaver]

If money isn't a constraint some people tend to forget that money has a value so it becomes a theoretical figure not needed to take into account when making a decision. That accept sometimes as a mean of social mark; I can afford this and you can't. Edit: This doesn't always mean that you're well off. It can also be based on that you take all the loans you can get without understanding the consequences.


You are correct, but that's not the full truth. Companies selling high end products with large margins must infuse their brand with values that assure their customers and potential customers that the premium cost gives premium value. Why does a Dior EdC cost more than ten times more than a Proraso EdC? It's better true, but not that much better.

I hate to state this, because it makes me sound arrogant, but I studied and worked with this for a living for more than 20 years until I realised that life is too short to be wasted.

I would say that I'm an extremely rational person, too rational even, except when it comes to straight razors and really beautiful design. However I am aware of it and I have made a rational decision to make these two areas my "irrational haven" within very defined boundaries.

There's nothing arrogant about knowledge. I have an MBA and worked in the business world as well.

Of course the price of something is determined by many things (exclusivity, added value, demand, etc) but marketing a brand isn't just about conning people. You wouldn't know that you wanted a Porsche if you had never heard of one. Even though it's not 10 times better than the average Toyota, it is "better" and even though it's only marginally better, for a wealthy person that's all that it needs to be. An extra dollar in their bank account is only marginally marking their life better.

All people aren't affected equally by "status" however.

 

[seattleshaver]

Very nice post.

Mostly I agree. Perhaps there's a better way to describe brands of razors that are typically called "overpriced." Perhaps "overvalued?" Excessively popular? In the marketplace the only votes counted are dollars, so who is to say?

I've learned a lot thinking about the various matters discussed here and by attempting to apply them to get what I want on eBay while also avoiding paying too very much.

As I see it there's considerable downside (mostly emotional) in losing a razor one really wants. There's an obvious solution, but it carries its own risk. There is a price which will seem too high regardless of how much one wanted the razor. That price will be paid when the obvious solution is simultaneously employed by a competitor who wants the razor almost but not quite as much.

In a sense we're dealing here with items which are subjectively valuable.

I'm not being critical of eBay's bidding system, but, unlike other auctions I've attended and participated in the end is both sudden and, though the magic of the digital world, extended. Imagine going to a live auction where everyone bids as usual. Once the live auction is over, the auctioneer opens sealed envelopes which have additional bids. These bids are accepted and one of them may win, but there's no way to know what's in the envelopes until the live auction has ended. To win against sealed bids, one must submit a sealed bid hoping to beat known unknown bids.

Again, not being critical, but it's an interesting system and a difficult game if one is trying to win a given auction without paying so much that buyer's remorse is a real possibility.

Happy shaves,

Jim

There are many kinds of auctions including sealed bid auctions.

One "rule" of negotiating a price is when the price gets to where you are OK being either a buyer or a seller.

For instance, you and another guy collect Puma razors. You are trying to buy his razor for $200 and he says that's too low and offers to buy your Puma razor for $200. If won't sell yours for that price...your offer was too low.

 

[Twelvefret]

Anytime I've lost out on a eBay auction, I've found the same/better condition item later at a lower price. This for me in the genius of eBay. It rewards patients and punishes impulsivity.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

There are many kinds of auctions including sealed bid auctions.

Yes, of course. Ebay is becoming more and more a two part auction with the more important part sealed bid.

One "rule" of negotiating a price is when the price gets to where you are OK being either a buyer or a seller. For instance, you and another guy collect Puma razors. You are trying to buy his razor for $200 and he says that's too low and offers to buy your Puma razor for $200. If won't sell yours for that price...your offer was too low.

I'm absolutely not disagreeing with this. How could I because it's correct and I agree with it, but I can't figure out how to apply it to winning auctions on eBay. Maybe I'm missing something.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[naughtilus]

I listened to someone from different hobby industry give talk to fellow manufacturers/reviewers/marketeers/hobbyists. His explanation why that hobby can't attract young people and disposable income unlike say cars or watches is because everyone is trying to sell a better mousetrap instead of better experience. The later isn't always about performance, value, ROI etc.

 

[Twelvefret]

There's nothing arrogant about knowledge. I have an MBA and worked in the business world as well.

Of course the price of something is determined by many things (exclusivity, added value, demand, etc) but marketing a brand isn't just about conning people. You wouldn't know that you wanted a Porsche if you had never heard of one. Even though it's not 10 times better than the average Toyota, it is "better" and even though it's only marginally better, for a wealthy person that's all that it needs to be. An extra dollar in their bank account is only marginally marking their life better.

All people aren't affected equally by "status" however.

Funny how people think they were conned into making a purchase. My experience says folks buy for bragging rights. Those bragging rights usually end when the razor is posted or everyone forgets your Face Book post...LOL!!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Just bid what it is worth to you. If somebody gets it for more, then they paid more than it is worth to you.

I always figure in an active market sector, if I win more than 10% of my fleabay auctions then I am bidding too high.

Never bid an even dollar or half dollar amount. Always go like 7 cents higher. Other guys will go a penny higher or a nickel higher and get a high percentage of scoops for just a few cents more than the even amounts. Go the extra penny or three and your win percentage will go up at very little expense.

Okay thats all my fleabay secrets I am willing to divulge. So come... bring your credit card. Enter my jungle, "lunch".

 

[alpster]

I have bought a couple of hundred razors on ebay with almost no regrets. I've made incredible deals and have paid the going price. I have had more trouble with retail vendors selling sub-standard razors. The key to buying anything, anywhere is having an idea of what it's worth and not paying any more than that. Ebay has become so ubiquitous that crazy low prices are a thing of the past. You only have to search for sold listings of any item to see what it will go for. The market is transparent now and very few sellers are ignorant of value. I stopped searching for low prices long ago in favor of excellent condition. There are a few "Holy Grail" razors that I would be tempted to "overpay for. The old adage "whatever the traffic will bear" is true here also.

 

[pdieten]

Yes, of course. Ebay is becoming more and more a two part auction with the more important part sealed bid.



I'm absolutely not disagreeing with this. How could I because it's correct and I agree with it, but I can't figure out how to apply it to winning auctions on eBay. Maybe I'm missing something.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Becoming? This argument was hashed out and decided twenty years ago. That's how long ago people started making your argument, and it did not win. If you got beat by a late snipe bid, it's because the person submitting that bid knew about the item long before their bid was placed, and was willing to pay more for it than you. In fact, they may have been willing to pay three times what you bid. eBay is only going to make them pay the second highest bid plus the increment. Heck, I've submitted more than one snipe bid where I was pleased with how little I ended up having to pay for something, because I had put more in the bid window, but nobody called me on it.

The only way to win an eBay auction is to put in the absolute maximum you're willing to pay, such that if you'd bid any more, you'd be angry about winning the auction because you know you'll have paid too much. And you make that bid as late as you possibly can, so that unskilled bidders cannot test it. There is no other valid strategy. If you don't know what your maximum bid on an item should be because you don't know what it's "worth", that's not really eBay's problem; it's your job to know the value of the item. But if you hide that bid until the last minute and snipe, it doesn't matter if you guessed wrong. The second-highest bidder decides how much the item goes for.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Just bid what it is worth to you. If somebody gets it for more, then they paid more than it is worth to you.

I always figure in an active market sector, if I win more than 10% of my fleabay auctions then I am bidding too high.

Never bid an even dollar or half dollar amount. Always go like 7 cents higher. Other guys will go a penny higher or a nickel higher and get a high percentage of scoops for just a few cents more than the even amounts. Go the extra penny or three and your win percentage will go up at very little expense.

Okay thats all my fleabay secrets I am willing to divulge. So come... bring your credit card. Enter my jungle, "lunch".

No more secrets, Slash? We'll coax out the rest of 'em over time. Shoot, you'll end up making a video on how to do eBay properly!

10% - wow, that's a low but probably good rule of thumb when you think about it.

Except...

...The market is transparent now and very few sellers are ignorant of value. I stopped searching for low prices long ago in favor of excellent condition. There are a few "Holy Grail" razors that I would be tempted to "overpay for. The old adage "whatever the traffic will bear" is true here also.

^^^This^^^

It helps me to think about the "cost" to me of missing out on the razor.

My filters for this are these.

• The razor is an item you just don't see. Buy it now or buy it never. I really really want it.
• Consider the rarity of the item and/or rarity of the combination of the item and its condition (a NOS Wade anybody?).
• An item I've spent months looking for.
• A far better example of one of my favorite razors. In mint condition or mint/NOS?
• A Holy Grail Dream Razor.
• Something I'm going to spend days mourning the loss of should I lose the auction.

There may be other filters but these are the ones that occur to me at the moment. They're the main ones I use to determine if I should bid a high enough amount to guarantee to a sufficient degree of certainty I will win the item.

Of course, no matter what I bid there could be somebody willing to bid $200 more than any reasonable person thinks the item is worth. I am not hoping to beat their price. I have my limits.

Slash is right. I don't want to win them all. If I were, I'd be paying way too much.

Most items come around again often at a better price, etc.

This post (quoted below) is worth reading several times I think.

Becoming? This argument was hashed out and decided twenty years ago. That's how long ago people started making your argument, and it did not win. If you got beat by a late snipe bid, it's because the person submitting that bid knew about the item long before their bid was placed, and was willing to pay more for it than you. In fact, they may have been willing to pay three times what you bid. eBay is only going to make them pay the second highest bid plus the increment. Heck, I've submitted more than one snipe bid where I was pleased with how little I ended up having to pay for something, because I had put more in the bid window, but nobody called me on it.

The only way to win an eBay auction is to put in the absolute maximum you're willing to pay, such that if you'd bid any more, you'd be angry about winning the auction because you know you'll have paid too much. And you make that bid as late as you possibly can, so that unskilled bidders cannot test it. There is no other valid strategy. If you don't know what your maximum bid on an item should be because you don't know what it's "worth", that's not really eBay's problem; it's your job to know the value of the item. But if you hide that bid until the last minute and snipe, it doesn't matter if you guessed wrong. The second-highest bidder decides how much the item goes for.

Nicely stated, but I have a question.

But if you hide that bid until the last minute and snipe, it doesn't matter if you guessed wrong. The second-highest bidder decides how much the item goes for.

I completely understand the second statement, but what are you saying in the first?

You've covered bidding too high, but it seems to me that you can guess wrong and bid too low. Example: I bid about twice the maximum price I'd seen any razor like Razor X selling for. I have a very nice Razor X, wanted another, and this was a great example of Razor X, somewhat better than mine. It's not a rare razor, but the example being sold was very very good; still, none have ever sold (I did my homework) for more than 50% of my bid. I bid so much I couldn't imagine anyone outbidding me, but, you guessed it. Someone bid more and they won.

I could have bid twenty times the maximum the razor had ever sold for but that seems to me to be a foolish tactic because I would be angry to win at that price. However, I was angry at myself for not bidding more than I guessed any reasonable person might bid.

It mattered to me that I guessed wrong, but what I was wrong about was something not entirely knowable.

Obviously we can't win them all without bidding way way way too much all the time.

Your thoughts?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[pdieten]

You've covered bidding too high, but it seems to me that you can guess wrong and bid too low. Example: I bid about twice the maximum price I'd seen any razor like Razor X selling for. I have a very nice Razor X, wanted another, and this was a great example of Razor X, somewhat better than mine. It's not a rare razor, but the example being sold was very very good; still, none have ever sold (I did my homework) for more than 50% of my bid. I bid so much I couldn't imagine anyone outbidding me, but, you guessed it. Someone bid more and they won.

If you bid the absolute most you're willing to pay, then you can't guess too low. All that means is that somebody else was willing to pay too much. You can't do anything about that.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

If you bid the absolute most you're willing to pay, then you can't guess too low. All that means is that somebody else was willing to pay too much. You can't do anything about that.

True that.

Thanks.

 

[seattleshaver]

You can also sort the listings by "auction' and "buy me now". If you are going to do the latter then do it by "newest listing first". If the fixed price is right, you need to know about it before anyone else.

The best way to "win" an auction is not not bid in an auction. However, many of the most desirable razors are only listed in auction format but that's not always the case.

You can also save searches and set up an email notification for when they appear.

When fixed price listing I look for the newest listings. For auctions I look for those about to end so that I don't have to wait too long.

For selling, I prefer fixed price listings. I can change the price up or down depending on how the market is responding.

If I list an item with a high price and it doesn't sell soon I might go a little lower than I'm actually comfortable with. I know I've gone too low when I'm uncomfortable with my low price and I start to be people asking me to lower it more.

At that point I go to a much higher price and it usually sells. I can always relist it again if it doesn't sell with no penalty. I never use "make an offer". I stay in control of the pricing. I might lower it but if I let the potential buyer know that I'll accept a lower offer...guess what...I'll always get less than the price I'm listing the item for.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

It occurs to me to pay attention to the day and time auctions end. I'm interested in seeing if there's a difference in the selling price between different times. Example: Same (as much as possible) item being sold where the auction ends (for example)...

• On Saturday evening.
• On Wednesday morning at 4 am.

Both times being USA east coast.

My thesis is more bidders on the weekends and evenings are available to drive prices up.

I'm not sure of this, of course, but just speculating and observing.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Slash McCoy]

It occurs to me to pay attention to the day and time auctions end. I'm interested in seeing if there's a difference in the selling price between different times. Example: Same (as much as possible) item being sold where the auction ends (for example)...

• On Saturday evening.
• On Wednesday morning at 4 am.

Both times being USA east coast.

My thesis is more bidders on the weekends and evenings are available to drive prices up.

I'm not sure of this, of course, but just speculating and observing.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Indeed. There is a measurable difference. But most experienced sellers set auctions to end when they will have the most bidders for exactly that reason.