Smooth vs sharp? Really?

[kohalajohn]

Now that I'm getting sharp edges on my straight, I am pondering the meaning of smooth vs sharp. Like whether that is even a thing. Maybe there's just degrees of sharpness, ya know?

The straight that I'm maintaining with .1u diamond pasted balsa, The Method, is now very sharp. Easily treetops. Quietly pop pop pop.

Shaving with this very sharp straight, I felt at first that it was, well, crisp. Is that the word?

But now I think, no. I am starting to change my mind about this smooth vs sharp debate. I'm starting to think there's just sharp and less sharp.

The praise heaped on the coti edge, the jnat edge, is their comfort. And the blades that are taken to very very sharp are criticized as being less smooth as being "crisp".

Well, I suspect that's not a thing. The cotis and jnats feel more comfortable simply because they are back at the 12k level of sharpness. A sweet spot if you will. Sharp enough to cut beard. Not so sharp they make your subconscious sit upright and pay close attention to what you're doing.

But you go further than that, with science fiction pastes, you get sharper. Now your subconscious sits up. Maybe that awareness of your subconscious sitting up warily, is what we interpret of "crispness" or "discomfort on the face."

But I like that feeling. But I can also understand how some fellas would not. While shaving the feeling is hey, pay attention, this tool is powerful, it's getting very close with very little effort.

And anyway, what is the physics behind smooth vs crisp vs sharp? I've never had that explained to me. How can there be "varieties" of sharpness? Maybe it's just like "varieties" of darkness and brightness. It's just binary.

No, I now think that the popularity of the naniwa 12k is that it's sharp enough without becoming so sharp that mind snaps to attention when using it.

Thoughts, comments, wild critical ideas?

 

[Lightcs1776]

I am too new to this to give any objective opinion. But I will be following along to learn a thing or two.

Sent from my DROID Turbo using Tapatalk

 

[dundak]

I think there is both smooth and sharp. How smooth a razor is depends on a lot of factors. Bevel acuity, edge thickness, convexity, bevel polish etc. Your skin is imperfect and irregular. You want an edge where all those factors meld and make a razor that will cut well hydrated whiskers but glide over all the other irregularities. If you just focus on sharp and make a vorpal effortless push cutter then all those bumps, skin tags, raised follicles, moles, and skin folds would just be sheared off. Leaving you with razor burn, weepers and serious dermabrasion.

I can dial my own edge and find a mix that never leaves irritation. My level of comfort may be a 40 angstrom edge, 17 degree bevel, light perpendicular striations on the bevel and mildly convexed shoulders. Yours may be a 30 angstrom edge with, 18 degree bevel, mirror polish and sharp shoulders. Cool thing about straights...YMMV

 

[global_dev]

“crisp” by coticule terminology is not negative connotation like harsh. the language translation to i think isnt the same from bart at coticule.be

i also dont think the coticule edge is akin to a 12k as the edge isnt so much refined polished with a coti as itnis rounded by the garnets. thats not what happens with synthetics.

the jnats depending on your stone, naguras, and tomonaguras and progression can be smooth or sharp. the slurry or on water changes things.

i also think the naniwa 12k is a good value stone not as expensive as the chosera 10K or shapton glass or ceramic or suehiro gokumyos. the grits same number between companies can also be different, iirc.

as mentioned above, the steel and angles also play into the sharpness.

lots of stuff going in on straights. it can be a blast trying to find what works so well for an individual.

 

[steveclarkus]

I’ve used The Method since May and find the edges sharp and comfortable. A coticule uses garnet to cut and balsa uses diamond but diamond is available in finer grits. I’ve shaved with jnat edges and don’t find them superior. Both are sharp and both are comfortable. The bottom line is how your face feels afterwards. I prefer a close two pass shave to a close three pass shave. I like the feel of “sharp” but to each his own.

 

[kelbro]

Very sharp = smooth to me. I like a one pass shave that leaves me smooth and super sharp is the only way that I can get there.

 

[eKretz]

I think often the difference is that fellows aren't used to a super keen edge so they don't compensate with their blade angle. That results in more skin scraping and irritation. When I start with an unfamiliar blade or honing method I always start the shave with the spine of the razor flat on my face, then bring it up slowly until I find the sweet spot. The other issue is with some of these methods - especially for the new guys - it's easy to get a little wire edge, and if that fails mid-shave it's about like dragging microscopic nails across your face.

 

[MO1]

I guess it would be the convex edge as opposed to the plain bevel, were as the convex would be smoother and a more plain bevel would be sharper.
when tree topping, a really sharp edge grabs and cuts it right off, and a smooth edge would slice the hair.
This is based on my own experience, and im still new, so anyone feel free to correct me or add information.

 

[Luecke2326]

Sorry, this is ultra YMMV! My personal preference is a smooth and keen Coti/Escher edge over a Laser sharp Jnat or Method edge.

 

[Twelvefret]

Sorry, this is ultra YMMV! My personal preference is a smooth and keen Coti/Escher edge over a Laser sharp Jnat or Method edge.

I agree, YMMV

Another factor that’s emerging is that beard type determines what is possible of desired.

 

[global_dev]

when tree topping, a really sharp edge grabs and cuts it right off, and a smooth edge would slice the hair.
This is based on my own experience, and im still new, so anyone feel free to correct me or add information.

i dont think thats what experience in edge testing generally shows. a toothier edge grabs and cut also.

I agree, YMMV

Another factor that’s emerging is that beard type determines what is possible of desired.

interesting if beard type really is a factor. usually you hear grind as a more predominant issue with bears type.

i tend to think that I have a thick and coarse beard* and my personal experience doesnt appear to align with needing a specific edge or grind. *note i did not say the thickest/coarsest beard ever.

 

[eKretz]

The beard type thing is pretty anecdotal IMO. Not one person has seemingly actually measured their beard hair to see if it really is unusually large in diameter or tougher in any way. My own beard hair is actually a good bit larger in diameter than hair found on my arms or head, but to my mind that would make it easier to cut as it's less likely to spring away from the blade.

 

[KW Driver]

I think this piece gets to the heart of a comfortable shave, and good post shave feel:

You want an edge where all those factors meld and make a razor that will cut well hydrated whiskers but glide over all the other irregularities. If you just focus on sharp and make a vorpal effortless push cutter then all those bumps, skin tags, raised follicles, moles, and skin folds would just be sheared off. Leaving you with razor burn, weepers and serious dermabrasion

here's my experience with feel of different edges.

a properly done coti edge is simply buttery smooth and efficient without any suggestion or sense of tugging or pulling. it feels like a butter knife on the skin and just wipes off the whiskers. the downside to them is, some days getting that edge requires black magic.

every Escher and my ark edges have felt toothier and slightly tuggy, like a mid level hone that's almost there, but needs a finisher.

Jnats can feel laser sharp and pretty to amazingly smooth. Brooksie had probably the best edge I've ever felt. coti smooth and laser keen. it was the smoothest Jnat edge I've ever used.

film edges can be laser sharp and very harsh feeling. .5, and especially .25 on balsa feel harsh often. having tried Slash's pass around, I'm amazed at how much .1 smooths out the edge feel. when I was doing film, I'd stop at 1 mic, and then went to pico paper padded 1 mic to convex and smooth out the edge which could be comparable to a Jnat edge. Seraphim and Doc226 did an edge test shave off that the user (tester) said were very close but Doc's Jnat edge won out.

I don't really have experience with synth stones. at least shaving off a synth finisher.

the keener an edge is, the more important angle and pressure become for face feel. too much of either/both will lead to that irritation and dermabrasion.

what's important to me is having an edge that doesn't tug or pull whatsoever while shaving, while being comfortable. there are several types that fit that bill, when I do my part. I also prefer full/bellied/extra hollows and 1/4 hollows for a grind. I think grind can also be a factor in face feel while shaving as others mentioned for edge thickness, bevel angle, etc.

 

[Alum of Potash]

My sense of smooth versus sharp has to do with whether or not I feel the blade's edge while shaving. With a coticule edge, I normally do not feel the the blade's edge, which I would call smooth. The downside of this is that a coticule edge does not shave close enough for me. With a sharp edge, I can feel the edge while shaving. Viewed positively, I would call it keen; viewed negatively, I would call it harsh. The Welsh slate I use after a coticule takes things in the direction of keenness; and in some ways I like being mildly reminded of the blade's edge while shaving. But if done well, which may have to do with cutting down on the lap counts at this stage, that keenness is overlaid in a subtle way, so that it augments the coticule's smoothness. The result is a shave that is both close and smooth, with the edge's presence not being felt.

I've tried a Thuri and a Jnat, and received a Jnat edge one time as honed by someone else, and in all cases, the edge was what I would style "sharpness shrouded in smoothness." The sensation was like cloud in which there was a mild cutting line. Most curious, and it did result in a closer shave than I get with a coticule, but I prefer the more naked presence of slate's keenness in comparison.

I've mostly been shaving with straights over the past few weeks. But at one point last week, I was running late and hauled out a shavette with a DE half-blade. In running it over my face, I was surprised to see weepers where I hadn't seen them with the straights. The blade had no problem cutting down my whiskers and left me with close shave, but it felt raw afterwards. This I would call a harsh shave.

 

[Clay S]

The beard type thing is pretty anecdotal IMO. Not one person has seemingly actually measured their beard hair to see if it really is unusually large in diameter or tougher in any way. My own beard hair is actually a good bit larger in diameter than hair found on my arms or head, but to my mind that would make it easier to cut as it's less likely to spring away from the blade.

Your shaving along the surface. Your hair has nowhere to spring to. It does have a better chance of laying over, which makes it easier for the blade to not cut. The thin hair is called Vellus, while thicker hairs Terminal. I have both on my face, I assume everyone does.

Terminal hairs laid over and scraped:

Terminal & Vellus hairs:

Different hair colors:

 

[buca3152]

All subjective of course. This is why ymmv is always the mantra. One guys smooth could be someone else's harsh or dull etc. End of the day it's about what works and what you like. Find it and do it. The rest is minutae.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yup, that’s cause non of us has anyone’s beard except our own. Advice can only be so helpful .

 

[eKretz]

Your shaving along the surface. Your hair has nowhere to spring to. It does have a better chance of laying over, which makes it easier for the blade to not cut. The thin hair is called Vellus, while thicker hairs Terminal. I have both on my face, I assume everyone does.

Terminal hairs laid over and scraped:
View attachment 954487
Terminal & Vellus hairs:
View attachment 954488
Different hair colors:
View attachment 954489

Sure it does, skin isn't made of steel, it's flexible. And laying over is what I meant when I said springing away. Definitely could have worded that better. Whether the hair is growing nearly straight out or growing out at an angle plays a big part too. Good photos!

 

[proslogion]

This thread is great - I'm new to this and I've been wondering about different levels or sharp/feel for a razor. Thanks all for contributing!

 

[Clay S]

Sure it does, skin isn't made of steel, it's flexible. And laying over is what I meant when I said springing away. Definitely could have worded that better. Whether the hair is growing nearly straight out or growing out at an angle plays a big part too. Good photos!

When it lays over, I don't think it would impact how the blade feels is what I was trying to impart. My terminal hair getting scraped aren't uncomfortable, just degrades the shave quality, at least for me.

I mainly saw a segue into my photos On some top down shots I have, the keratin of a terminal hair seems to be the thickness of an entire vellus hair. It has a darker outer part, which I assume is the keratin, and a lighter colored core. That much keratin should be harder to cut through. I don't have any pics of it currently, but could have some later, or tomorrow morning, if interested in seeing.