slurry escher/coticule

[mrmaroon]

I'll try and bring this back on track Gary, I use no slurry at all on mine. you will tell right away the difference from a coticule, because the razor will pop hairs like a stropped coticule - Before stropping! Stropping doesn't improve my escher edges that much because they already pop hairs at HHT4 straight off the hone. 150 laps on newsprint helps.

Hope this helps buddy
(ps the nortons are working great)

 

[azmark]

Whatever method used it sure slices the heck out of you the same way if you're not careful.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Please read his third post on the second page of that thread.

I did, and I read it as him saying that there are the:

A) Genuine Nagura stones (researched by Iwasaki) that are coarser and used for coarse work

B) Small form honyama (piece of the hone) that is used for finishing work (this is what he says his barber calls a nagura - in a thread on his blog). He goes on to say this is not a real nagura (the chalky stones).

Maybe I'm reading it wrong (??)

EDIT: Sorry about hijacking the thread. I can't help with the Escher question.

 

[gary haywood]

I'll try and bring this back on track Gary, I use no slurry at all on mine. you will tell right away the difference from a coticule, because the razor will pop hairs like a stropped coticule - Before stropping! Stropping doesn't improve my escher edges that much because they already pop hairs at HHT4 straight off the hone. 150 laps on newsprint helps.

Hope this helps buddy
(ps the nortons are working great)

cheers bud.how many laps are you doing? i will try after coticule. i should get it deliverd tomorrow. does the edge feel any sharper or smoother etc after the coticule?

 

[richmondesi]

I did, and I read it as him saying that there are the:

A) Genuine Nagura stones (researched by Iwasaki) that are coarser and used for coarse work

B) Small form honyama (piece of the hone) that is used for finishing work (this is what he says his barber calls a nagura - in a thread on his blog). He goes on to say this is not a real nagura (the chalky stones).

Maybe I'm reading it wrong (??)

EDIT: Sorry about hijacking the thread. I can't help with the Escher question.

Now, to address Ray's question about slurry stones.

I have been looking at and researching Nagura for a while. The reason it has taken me a while is, the information has been scattered, and really only one man has written anything meaningful about them--Kousuke Iwasaki, father of Shigeyoshi Iwasaki and the man who put the name on the map, as it were. He's also, in a real way, the father of modern Tamahagane...but that's probably putting it a bit strongly.

Anyway, Iwasaki-shi was a researcher and a blacksmith, and he was utterly dedicated to making as perfect an edge as he could. To that end, he not only researched metallurgy, but stones as well. He found that Nagura, which were small, chalky stones used to make a slurry on Japanese hones for hundreds of years, had different types, and indeed the best didn't come from the "Nagura" mine at all. The best Nagura come from a place called Mikawa, and the Mikawa Nagura have 4 essential types. (The following is a brief rundown taken from Kousuke Iwasaki's book "How to hone kamisori and razors".)

First, is Botan. This stone, when used on a hone, makes a fast, coarse slurry. It is best for removing chips and straightening an uneven bevel.

Then come the Tenjou and Mejiro. These are finer and slower than the Botan, and suitable for les drastic work, like honing out a slightly rounded edge.

Then comes Koma, which is both very fine, and very fast--it's suitable both for polishing AND for repair, and thus is more expensive and hard to find.

HOWEVER, for the final edge, for getting the best you can get, you need what he called "Small form Honyama", i.e. a small piece of Nakayama Maruka stone, about the size of a matchbox. When used as a nagura, this stone will raise a slurry of the finest particles, which still cut quickly but then break down even finer to polish the edge.

This final stone is the key to getting a good edge, and this is what I have from my barber. When used properly, the small form honyama is able to put an exquisite edge on a razor. It is a bit slow for real repair work (I can attest to this form personal experience), which is why the other Nagura are also recommended, but for the final polish it can't be beat.

I read it differently than you. I see the honyama as being a piece of a specific stone (nakayama maruka which is purported to be the "best" IIRC), and not just a piece of whatever type of Japanese natural you happen to have. I've read discussions of substituting a piece of your stone for that or using a DMT to raise the slurry. Additionally, there are multiple types of Nagura that are used for varying purposes.

 

[MajorBurnz]

I read it differently than you. I see the honyama as being a piece of a specific stone (nakayama maruka which is purported to be the "best" IIRC), and not just a piece of whatever type of Japanese natural you happen to have. I've read discussions of substituting a piece of your stone for that or using a DMT to raise the slurry. Additionally, there are multiple types of Nagura that are used for varying purposes.

I guess we read it differently then. I get what you're saying about honyama. Jim refers to pieces of the hone itself as honzan (I don't speak Japanese so I don't understand what it means). It is my understanding that's what is recommended to use for the final finishing.

Jim was using a Maruka to hone on, so it made sense that the slurry stone was also Maruka.

I took that to mean that if you use an Asagi, the honzan (honyama??) should also be Asagi. Regardless, it works the way he said it should.

EDIT: Also, I agree with maniaman in that what Jim says in that post about all Nagura varieties indicates that they should not be used for finishing. The honyama/honzan are the finishing slurry stones.

Of course, all this doesn't help Gary with his question......sorry, Gary.

 

[mainaman]

This isn't necessarily accurate. Check out that thread I linked in my last post

I talked to So extensively about using nagura as I knew people recommended it and he said there is no existing nagura that will break down to grit as fine as a finisher. The only way to do that is to use a piece of the same stone, or diamond plate.

 

[mainaman]

I read it differently than you. I see the honyama as being a piece of a specific stone (nakayama maruka which is purported to be the "best" IIRC), and not just a piece of whatever type of Japanese natural you happen to have. I've read discussions of substituting a piece of your stone for that or using a DMT to raise the slurry. Additionally, there are multiple types of Nagura that are used for varying purposes.

Maruka is just the name of the company that owned the mine, and I bet two Maruka stones are not identical. Maruka label assures the stone is authentic but there are fake ones too, so the name label does not mean much in that regard.The Nakyama mine has been in operation for many hundreds of years, and the stones that were mined from that same mine before Maruka are just as good.
I believe, Jim refers to nagura that is cut from the stone in use, each stone is unique therefore one has to really cut a piece of it to make the slurry stone so that the grits match.

 

[mrmaroon]

cheers bud.how many laps are you doing? i will try after coticule. i should get it deliverd tomorrow. does the edge feel any sharper or smoother etc after the coticule?

Gary, I finish on the norton 8k until shave ready, then I do about 50 laps on water and 25 dry. (my stone is 1x5") I dunno if the dry laps help or not, but it sure doesn't hurt. You will tell right away when shaving that it feels different. It is certainly sharper, maybe a tiny bit less smooth. It is a LOT easier to cut yourself though, a lot less forgiving.

Have a good one
Mrmaroon

 

[richmondesi]

Maruka is just the name of the company that owned the mine, and I bet two Maruka stones are not identical. Maruka label assures the stone is authentic but there are fake ones too, so the name label does not mean much in that regard.The Nakyama mine has been in operation for many hundreds of years, and the stones that were mined from that same mine before Maruka are just as good.
I believe, Jim refers to nagura that is cut from the stone in use, each stone is unique therefore one has to really cut a piece of it to make the slurry stone so that the grits match.

Well, let's face it. No two stones from any vein in coticule or variety of Japanese natural will be identical.

I guess, I'm just hypersensitive to people saying things are "incorrect" when there are other ways to get good results. There are a lot of guys who use the term nagura to refer to a slurry stone (in fact Jim even said use a piece of Nakayama Maruka as a nagura when making that point). If that piece happens to be from any quality finisher, it would be excellent.

Additionally, a Koma Nagura stone is designated as being suitable for Polishing and repair. This means that it would work for finishing. To get the max edge out of a razor, he recommends a Honyama, but nowhere is it stated that it's "incorrect technique" if you don't.

There are simply too many ways to get good results for people to say something is "incorrect" when it works for some. That's my point.

 

[mainaman]

Well, let's face it. No two stones from any vein in coticule or variety of Japanese natural will be identical.

I guess, I'm just hypersensitive to people saying things are "incorrect" when there are other ways to get good results. There are a lot of guys who use the term nagura to refer to a slurry stone (in fact Jim even said use a piece of Nakayama Maruka as a nagura when making that point). If that piece happens to be from any quality finisher, it would be excellent.

Additionally, a Koma Nagura stone is designated as being suitable for Polishing and repair. This means that it would work for finishing. To get the max edge out of a razor, he recommends a Honyama, but nowhere is it stated that it's "incorrect technique" if you don't.

There are simply too many ways to get good results for people to say something is "incorrect" when it works for some. That's my point.

You are correct there is no wrong way there is different way of doing things. I think a lot of the trouble with understanding how to use Jnats comes from the misuse of terminology and unfamiliarity with details on types of stones and how they are used.
I like the thread you referred to.
I learned something that I have not heard before although I have seen example of , you can use the finished as a base for different grit nagura stones to work on a blade, then finish on the stone with slurry.

 

[gary haywood]

Gary, I finish on the norton 8k until shave ready, then I do about 50 laps on water and 25 dry. (my stone is 1x5") I dunno if the dry laps help or not, but it sure doesn't hurt. You will tell right away when shaving that it feels different. It is certainly sharper, maybe a tiny bit less smooth. It is a LOT easier to cut yourself though, a lot less forgiving.

Have a good one
Mrmaroon

cheer mate, mine is aprox 5x2 in box with rubbing stone, it has the original label. I will try it and see what i think .

 

[MajorBurnz]

cheer mate, mine is aprox 5x2 in box with rubbing stone, it has the original label. I will try it and see what i think .

Gary,

Let us know what you think about the Escher as a finishing hone after you've had a chance to play with it. I used a vintage Thuringian for a while, and I wasn't particularly impressed with it (over the Asagi - which is what I was comparing it to at the time).

 

[MajorBurnz]

You are correct there is no wrong way there is different way of doing things. I think a lot of the trouble with understanding how to use Jnats comes from the misuse of terminology and unfamiliarity with details on types of stones and how they are used.
I like the thread you referred to.
I learned something that I have not heard before although I have seen example of , you can use the finished as a base for different grit nagura stones to work on a blade, then finish on the stone with slurry.

I have several Nagura stones (and the Asagi slurry stone as well), so I did an experiment a while ago with a C12K (which is notoriously slow; and I'd never attempt to do more than a final polishing on it normally).

I used my large C12K as a base and used the nagura and Asagi slurry stones to see if I could hone out some imperfections on the bevel of a JR Torrey I had.

It actually worked brilliantly. I used a coarse Nagura to create slurry for the initial correction of the bevel, and then used a Mejiro nagura to polish that a bit. Following that, I used the Asagi to raise a slurry on the C12K which is what I used for polishing. It was all much, much faster than with just a C12K, and the edge was superb.

I think the C12K is harder than my Asagi, so the only particles I was honing on were the Asagi particles.

Anyway, I felt bad about cross-using the hones so I never tried it again. I should go back and see if I can consistently reproduce these results. It would be a really cheap way to get great honing results - it it's consistent.

 

[gary haywood]

Gary,

Let us know what you think about the Escher as a finishing hone after you've had a chance to play with it. I used a vintage Thuringian for a while, and I wasn't particularly impressed with it (over the Asagi - which is what I was comparing it to at the time).

i sure will. I've got a funny feeling i may not notice much differance . I get a very fine edge of coticule with a lot of laps. I'm just going to try the escher untill then i won't no, i've always wanted one just to see for my self.

 

[Bart]

Slurry on any stone will leave a rougher edge than just water. This is the theory behind Bart's “Dilucot” method.

I would like to add that I only make that claim about Coticules.

There are three hones that I know very well: Coticules (in general), the Chosera 10K (I reckon they're all the same), and my Nakayama.

On Coticules, slurry introduces a limit that's less sharp than when the same stone is used with water only. Coticule garnets do not break down into smaller fragments.

On the Chosera, the same principle applies, but the particles do break down into smaller fragments. Although it requires some pressure, and a phase where you hone on thick, paste-like slurry to allow the degradation. Once past that point, the slurry needs to be thinned to a regular consistency. the keenness limit is now significantly raised, more on less on par with results on water. Yet both edges (one of water and one on degraded slurry) have an entirely different feel, more aggressively on water, smoother on degraded slurry.

My Nakayma works according exactly these same principles. Set bevel, and next work on a thick paste till the particles are sufficiently broken down, adjust consistency and finish the edge on that slurry. Finishing on just water works also, but again there's a small, yet distinct difference.

I only once had the opportunity to use an Escher. I honed 2 razors, with 2 different approaches. Both results were good enough to indicate a perfectly fine hone.

I'm strongly convinced that the quality of an edge is not so much in the hones, than in how well the owner knows how to use them. Good luck, with your new Escher Gary. Don't give up on it too soon, once you got it.

Bart.

 

[TstebinsB]

The true Mikawa Shiro Nagura stone is mined from the 12 layers of the Miwamura mountain in the Aichi prefecture. The four famous and most usable strata are Botan, Tenjo, Mejiro, and Koma.

Koma: The finest particles; used for JP swords.
Mejiro: Very fine; prepares edge for final finishing stage; the best for razors
Tenjo: Intermediate grit; mean for light repairs; white ones are soft and fast while ones with layers (usually yellow) are hard and slow
Botan: coarsest and fastest; meant for major repairs

Dr. Kosuke Iwasaki, Mr. Shigeyoshi Iwaski's father, believed that you could use different nagura in different stages of the honing process on the same Nakayama stone. This would allow you to progress from a dull edge to a shave ready edge without the need for other stones. However, to gain the most out your J-nat, he believed that your final nagura wasn't a nagura at all but a tomonagura.

Tomo = same
Nagura = slurry stone

It means a slurry stone that is identical to your finishing stone. If your stone is a Nakayama Kiita, then you would use a small piece of a Nakayama Kiita as your tomonagura. If your stone is an Ozuku Asagi, then you would use a small piece of an Ozuku Asagi as your tomonagura. It doesn't have to be a piece broken off of your whetstone but it should have similar characteristics.

Since most of us don't have a smaller yet identical piece of our Japanese whetstones, then a diamond plate is recommended. The diamond plate works because it's harder than the whetstone. It will build a slurry made up entirely of particles from your finishing stone. Instead of the slurry of an 8K nagura, you're getting the slurry of a 20K+ whetstone. Those particles break down and get smaller and finer, which will refine your razor's edge far beyond the purported grit of the stone. Only experience will tell you how many times you must repeat the process of building and diluting the slurry.

The Mejiro nagura is softer than the whetstone. It will break down and create a slurry of its particles, which are much coarser than those of your whetstone. As those particles break down, they can help bridge the gap from your intermediate finishing whetstone (Coticule, Shapton 16K, Shapton Pro 12K/15K, etc.) to your final finishing whetstone (Nakayama, Ozuku, etc.). However, they will never be as fine as the particles of your whetstone or tomonagura. That means there's a level of edge refinement that you will never reach.

Regardless of the stone I use before the Nakayama, I always start with the slurry of a Mejiro nagura and then I dilute. Next I build a new slurry with a DMT and then I dilute. Two or three repetitions of each is all I need. After that I finish on either water or diluted slurry. Once again, and this can't be overstated, only your experience will help you here. Also, you should know that there are people who never use their J-nat with slurry and still get wonderful edges. I have a routine with slurry that works so I've continued using it. However, I'm getting a Coticule and an Akatsuki HG-1 to serve as my intermediate finishing hones and I will experiment using the Nakayama after them w/o slurry.

 

[TstebinsB]

Just looked at the edges. coti sand blasted with slurry as usaaul. much nicer with water as i'd expect.

escher with slurry looks fine and with water hardly any differance. This shows me that slurry with escher has no where near the efect that coticule with slurry has, would you agree.

Looking at escher edges there little or no differance, from what i can see.

I owned an Escher and I never used slurry on it. You can try it but I believe it's one of those hones that doesn't need to be used with slurry.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Slurry increases the speed of an Escher a lot. I find a water finished edge is a little better, but it only takes a few passes on water to finish off the edge. It's not like a coticule where slurry vastly changes the properties of the hone and going from milky slurry to water is a multistage process.

 

[mainaman]

If your stone is a Nakayama Kiita, then you would use a small piece of a Nakayama Kiita as your tomonagura. If your stone is an Ozuku Asagi, then you would use a small piece of an Ozuku Asagi as your tomonagura. It doesn't have to be a piece broken off of your whetstone but it should have similar characteristics.

I think that is going to very hard to accomplish. Even two stones that are cut from the same piece of rock could be different. Imo here are two options for tomonagura, cut a piece of your own stone or use a piece of stone that is harder than your own. The easy way as you said is DMT.