Slow Coticules (revisited)

[javast]

I have a new coti from Ardennes I am trying to learn how to use. I have read a bunch of stuff here on this forum, and also watched a bunch of youtube videos. I know there is an old thread on this topic, but the last post is from 2012, and I am not sure if anyone would notice if I post my question there, so I am starting a new one.

I have honed razors before using a norton 4/8k. I manage to get a decent edge with the norton, but I have found the coticule much harder to use. I have one razor - a new dovo entry level blade. A few things I notice:

1. I can't seem to "push water" on the coti like I can on the norton. I know the razor has a good bevel. The blade slices under the water nicely on the norton, and not on the coti. I know the coti is flat - I used a nice diamond plate on it, same as a do with the norton. I can see that the coti is flat by laying a straightedge on it from a variety of directions.
2. I can use the 8k side of the norton, get a HHT 3/4 edge, but after a dozon x-strokes on the coti, it almost won't shave arm hair anymore.
3. The coti doesn't seem to cut much unless there is a slurry on it (I have a small bout). This is compounded by the following:
4. I tried to follow a dilucot method, but the slurry all collects on the blade. I tap as much off as possible, but when I wipe of the blade to have a look, the slurry ends up mostly getting wiped off. The impact is that I get to plain water too quickly, I think.

I made some progress by using more pressure. When I say more pressure, I mean quite substantial pressure in my opinion. When I do this, the swarf comes, and it feels like cutting is happening. The bevel starts to look more polished when viewed through a loupe. I continued with this for a while, and got to a HHT1/2 ish level (depending on blade location). I made a couple passes on CrOx, and I think the blade would be shaveable, but not amazing. I'll strop it up, and try it out tomorrow as a reference point, but my expectations are pretty low.

Does anything jump out that I might be doing wrong? More pressure seems ill-advised, but I can't seem to get it to cut otherwise.

 

[Herrenberg]

I keep a spray bottle of water by my sharpening station. That makes it easy to preserve the slurry by spraying it off of the razor and onto the stone.

 

[cotedupy]

Nothing particularly wrong stands out to me. The only thing perhaps is that maybe you should be starting off with a little more water for the dilucot. And then adding a few drops or a spray just when it starts to get to that stickier phase (that’s how I do it anyway, though tbh I’ve never actually read up about what the proper method should be).

 

[cotedupy]

Oh and also - how ‘polished’ the bevel looks doesn’t really matter at all. Especially with Cotis.

 

[Wid]

I wouldn't use a slurry at all for the time being. Get your razor to a shave ready state with the 8K then go straight to the coticule. You should see an improvement

A coti edge also improves substantially with a good stropping.

 

[ables]

Most of what you are describing sounds pretty similar to my first coticule experience, very frustrating and disappointing. Im not really following you on the push water part however, that isnt exactly something i zero in on. Maybe you are discribing the wake infront of the blade? I'm not certain there is any correlation between that and a good edge or good honing.

My 1st stone was a likely la grise slate backed new sold directly from Belgium. All that stone seemed to do was set back my synthetic edges. It feels fantastic to hone on, slick suction, but is abysmally slow. Using a pocket knife with pressure it is difficult to create any grey swarf. It will polish a bevel to pure mirror but the edge is unsuitable for my face for what ever reason. I eventually got some decent edges off of it using mineral oil. The oil would clean off with dish soap easily afterwards but I do not like dealing with oil on coticules.

Now that I have many other coticules it clearly is bottom of the bunch in everything besides maybe mirrored bevel ability which doesn't make a good shaving razor.

As much as I hate to fuel Hone Acquisition Disorder, I might recommend you try a vintage coticule next. You might be surprised in the dramatic difference, I spent way too long butting my head against the wall with my first one.

Also, you might be hard pressed to find a coticule that easily improves a well done norton 8k edge. Any quality well prepped translucent or black arkansas however likely will improve the edge.

 

[Empire straights]

I have a new coti from Ardennes I am trying to learn how to use. I have read a bunch of stuff here on this forum, and also watched a bunch of youtube videos. I know there is an old thread on this topic, but the last post is from 2012, and I am not sure if anyone would notice if I post my question there, so I am starting a new one.

I have honed razors before using a norton 4/8k. I manage to get a decent edge with the norton, but I have found the coticule much harder to use. I have one razor - a new dovo entry level blade. A few things I notice:

1. I can't seem to "push water" on the coti like I can on the norton. I know the razor has a good bevel. The blade slices under the water nicely on the norton, and not on the coti. I know the coti is flat - I used a nice diamond plate on it, same as a do with the norton. I can see that the coti is flat by laying a straightedge on it from a variety of directions.
2. I can use the 8k side of the norton, get a HHT 3/4 edge, but after a dozon x-strokes on the coti, it almost won't shave arm hair anymore.
3. The coti doesn't seem to cut much unless there is a slurry on it (I have a small bout). This is compounded by the following:
4. I tried to follow a dilucot method, but the slurry all collects on the blade. I tap as much off as possible, but when I wipe of the blade to have a look, the slurry ends up mostly getting wiped off. The impact is that I get to plain water too quickly, I think.

I made some progress by using more pressure. When I say more pressure, I mean quite substantial pressure in my opinion. When I do this, the swarf comes, and it feels like cutting is happening. The bevel starts to look more polished when viewed through a loupe. I continued with this for a while, and got to a HHT1/2 ish level (depending on blade location). I made a couple passes on CrOx, and I think the blade would be shaveable, but not amazing. I'll strop it up, and try it out tomorrow as a reference point, but my expectations are pretty low.

Does anything jump out that I might be doing wrong? More pressure seems ill-advised, but I can't seem to get it to cut otherwise.

Make sure it's completely flat.

 

[Empire straights]

Most of what you are describing sounds pretty similar to my first coticule experience, very frustrating and disappointing. Im not really following you on the push water part however, that isnt exactly something i zero in on. Maybe you are discribing the wake infront of the blade? I'm not certain there is any correlation between that and a good edge or good honing.

My 1st stone was a likely la grise slate backed new sold directly from Belgium. All that stone seemed to do was set back my synthetic edges. It feels fantastic to hone on, slick suction, but is abysmally slow. Using a pocket knife with pressure it is difficult to create any grey swarf. It will polish a bevel to pure mirror but the edge is unsuitable for my face for what ever reason. I eventually got some decent edges off of it using mineral oil. The oil would clean off with dish soap easily afterwards but I do not like dealing with oil on coticules.

Now that I have many other coticules it clearly is bottom of the bunch in everything besides maybe mirrored bevel ability which doesn't make a good shaving razor.

As much as I hate to fuel Hone Acquisition Disorder, I might recommend you try a vintage coticule next. You might be surprised in the dramatic difference, I spent way too long butting my head against the wall with my first one.

Also, you might be hard pressed to find a coticule that easily improves a well done norton 8k edge. Any quality well prepped translucent or black arkansas however likely will improve the edge.

Getting vintage coticules was a game changer for me. I hated them when my la gris was all I had tried. Now they're my favorites and i hoover them up with reckless abandon.

 

[Christian1212]

I would try 2 more things with your coticule before losing hope.

1. Finish under running water (do your normal routine up to the 8k stone first). Freshly lap the coticule making sure it is flat, then take your bout and smooth the surface up some. When the stone is done being prepped do like 30 or so laps under running water with as little pressure as you can.

2. If the above option does not work try using oil to finish the razor. Surface of thenstone should still be good.

If the above 2 tricks don't work for your stone then my guess is that it would probably be more of a tool stone.

 

[SammieM]

Hello,

The only thing I noticed is that you are using diamond plate to flatten it. Diamond is much harder compared to garnet and in Hell Bos’s honing book they say that the diamond shaves off the garnets unceasing their surface area which leads to “lower grit” effect.
I’d use a nice flat surface like glass or polished tile and wet/dry sandpaper.
Also, as suggested by Wid above use it as a finisher for now until you can figure out the stones potential a little. Dilucot method is a little difficult.
What you want to see when honing is not the water being pushed in front of the razor, but actually water starting to ride up on the steel all along the edge. That would usually suggest that there is no gap between the steel and the stone and your edge is flush with the stone.
Do 100 laps u set running water on the coti after Norton 8k clean the coticule. Get yourself some glycerine(easier to clean than mineral oil) and drop several drops on the stone that’s mostly dry and without pressure do another 100/120 laps. Strop it on canvas/linen 60 times and then same on leather.
Let us know how you get on.

 

[SammieM]

One last thing,

After the Norton you can also add a layer of electrical tape. Always use minimal pressure. Have a read at post 13. Bart has probably forgotten more about Coticules than I have ever known.

Electrical tape question??

Does the electrical tape change the honing angle? I had a fellow tell me not to use the tape on the spline of the razor.

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Empire straights]

You can use that notion stone to smooth out the coticule surface too I believe

 

[Tomo]

I can’t help you. I’ve never had much luck with Coticules. I’ve gotten a mediocre edge from them occasionally but that’s it. They don’t seem to want to give a good shaving edge willingly. Some people are able to coax one out of them but it sounds like there are lots of hoops to jump through. I’ll stick with other stones for finishing. I’ve killed too many edges on Coticules.

 

[SammieM]

I can’t help you. I’ve never had much luck with Coticules. I’ve gotten a mediocre edge from them occasionally but that’s it. They don’t seem to want to give a good shaving edge willingly. Some people are able to coax one out of them but it sounds like there are lots of hoops to jump through. I’ll stick with other stones for finishing. I’ve killed too many edges on Coticules.

If you still have a coticule, give the glycerine a go with no pressure. You might be surprised. I was ready to throw in the towel on my first coticule. The edge from it was not great with lots of tugging, albeit it was comfortable as in no irritation. I was shocked what it managed with the glycerine. The edge now rivals my best jnat edges…

BTW glycerine is dirt cheap and available in the pharmacy. It costs like 3-4€ here for a small bottle…

 

[Tomo]

If you still have a coticule, give the glycerine a go with no pressure. You might be surprised. I was ready to throw in the towel on my first coticule. The edge from it was not great with lots of tugging, albeit it was comfortable as in no irritation. I was shocked what it managed with the glycerine. The edge now rivals my best jnat edges…

BTW glycerine is dirt cheap and available in the pharmacy. It costs like 3-4€ here for a small bottle…

I’ve kept three of them in the hope that they get better with age (LV, LL and a hard vintage). The Coticule seems like a jack of all trades. I’ve gotten better results with specific tools for each task. Some people love them. Personally I can’t see it. Very likely it’s my skills that are not up to it. In my view they are not a beginner stone.

 

[SammieM]

I’ve kept three of them in the hope that they get better with age (LV, LL and a hard vintage). The Coticule seems like a jack of all trades. I’ve gotten better results with specific tools for each task. Some people love them. Personally I can’t see it. Very likely it’s my skills that are not up to it. In my view they are not a beginner stone.

I’d have to agree. They do require some knowledge and finesse. They can be a one stone hone, but personally I wouldn’t waste good coticule this way and synthetic low and mid grits give more consistent results unless you are well familiar with the use of Coticules…
Anyways, I apologise to the OP for derailing his thread…

 

[JPO]

My first Coticule was a newly mined La Grise. This was a frustrating experience. It was quite difficult to get consistent results with this particular stone.
My stone was hard and "glassy", and if slurry was used i needed to be careful and just use a really light slurry.
The stone was also, unlike most of my other coticules sensitive to surface prep. I got better results when the surface had been used and only conditioned with a nagura.
I got my best results if i used it more as a finisher or a pre-finisher. 8k to only water worked well. If i used it with slurry i used it more as a mid-range stone, followed by an Arkansas stone or a slate type of stone.
My stone would also degrade an 8k edge if too many laps were used. I still do not understand why this happened.
It also had a section that would release larger particles. I ended up cutting off some of the stone to avoid this "flaky" problematic part of the stone.
This stone was more or less useless as a knife stone, and not a good razor stone.
Now i just use it as the first step if i use convex stones. This allows a little more pressure, which seems to work well with this particular stone.
The stone cuts quite well, however the swarf does not suspend the same way as some of my other coticules. So it is a little more difficult to judge how well it is cutting.
To me it seemed like the garnets in my stone was quite big.

 

[javast]

So, I managed to shave off the edge I created yesterday (it was 1200 diamond/4k norton/coti - dilucot attempted as above). This morning I performed about 60 light x strokes on the coti under running water to try and make the best of what was there, and I noticed that the blade was shaving arm hair easily, at least, even though the HHT wouldn't pass at all. I stropped on linen and leather, but not crox. It shaved quite easily and closely, and was pretty comfortable. Nothing that would get me oohhing and ahhhing, but it wasn't bad either. I nicked myself a few times - user error, but it was certainly sharp enough not to be too forgiving. It's really weird to me that it doesn't pass HHT, yet actually shaves arm and face hair.

My plan is to pause honing for now, and see if the edge can be maintained for a few shaves using the strop. Then maybe crox, we'll see. After that, I plan to take @Wid advice and try to go 8k/coti with no slurry and see if that is any better.

I have a case of gold dollars coming from China so I will be able to experiment in parallel after they arrive. I'm also considering a trial of the lapping film method described under Seraphim's famous thread, but that will take a long time since I have to order the film from the US for EU delivery.

 

[Empire straights]

So, I managed to shave off the edge I created yesterday (it was 1200 diamond/4k norton/coti - dilucot attempted as above). This morning I performed about 60 light x strokes on the coti under running water to try and make the best of what was there, and I noticed that the blade was shaving arm hair easily, at least, even though the HHT wouldn't pass at all. I stropped on linen and leather, but not crox. It shaved quite easily and closely, and was pretty comfortable. Nothing that would get me oohhing and ahhhing, but it wasn't bad either. I nicked myself a few times - user error, but it was certainly sharp enough not to be too forgiving. It's really weird to me that it doesn't pass HHT, yet actually shaves arm and face hair.

My plan is to pause honing for now, and see if the edge can be maintained for a few shaves using the strop. Then maybe crox, we'll see. After that, I plan to take @Wid advice and try to go 8k/coti with no slurry and see if that is any better.

I have a case of gold dollars coming from China so I will be able to experiment in parallel after they arrive. I'm also considering a trial of the lapping film method described under Seraphim's famous thread, but that will take a long time since I have to order the film from the US for EU delivery.

For me the normal hht tests don't work rig coticule edges, but stropping a lot before you check will help. The proof is always in the pudding. To finish I always do super light circles for a little while all the way down the bevel on both sides and then I do a bunch of x strokes as light as I possibly can, the more the better especially if you can get into a rhythm when you're strokes are smooth. What I gather, coticule edges don't pass hht tests the same way because coticules shear all tiny little teeth away from the edge, essentially leaving you with a steel squeegee. The micro serrations are what make an edge aggressive. This is why for most knives its bad idea to finish it on a hard ark, unless for specific reasons, most of the teeth are gone. Same effect is what gives smooth shaves in my experience. With coticules you go through the steps, all the way to finished and then test it, or even better, just shave with it. Once I started approaching them that way I started liking them at more. They're my favorite stones now. Getting a really coarse one that was fast for knives kinda rekindled my interest. My Les lat will raise a large burr on a chisel.

 

[javast]

Here's a photo of the coti - I noticed that when the light reflects at the right angle, you can see some sort of intermittent shiny streaks that reminded me of the "glassy" comment above...