Show us your Japanese Natural Whetstones

[MO1]

Very nice - looks like a "kossy" from Mazambic...but if its a great stone, really, what does it matter where it comes from and who sold it, right? A lot of stones I have have chips and cracks but they are holding together well.

Oh yeah as long as it works i couldnt care less where its from.
Putting that aside, the store i bought it from is a cutlery store in Tokyo TDI キッチンワールド. Ordered it from rakuten, ohira is one of the few mines still open.
So im very hopeful.
Have yet to test it though.

 

[alex1921]

The sticker on your stone is from Imanishi toishi company. I dont doubt at all that the stone is from the mine that was stated only question is, is this a razor stone or more of a knife stone. Well testing will tell.

 

[MO1]

The sticker on your stone is from Imanishi toishi company. I dont doubt at all that the stone is from the mine that was stated only question is, is this a razor stone or more of a knife stone. Well testing will tell.

True.
it is really hard though. Smooth surface and took some time to lap it. Although from what i understand that is not only what matters.
Will probably put a razor to it tomorrow.
My first Jnat and my plan is to make a slurry with my atoma 400 (it is well broken in).
Any pointers or suggestions as how i should approach it?

 

[NPV]

True.
it is really hard though. Smooth surface and took some time to lap it. Although from what i understand that is not only what matters.
Will probably put a razor to it tomorrow.
My first Jnat and my plan is to make a slurry with my atoma 400 (it is well broken in).
Any pointers or suggestions as how i should approach it?

I'm pretty new to JNATs too but I would suggest taking an edge that is shave ready to the stone first. It helped me gauge when I was actually refining a razor vs. bringing it back (making it duller).

 

[MO1]

I'm pretty new to JNATs too but I would suggest taking an edge that is shave ready to the stone first. It helped me gauge when I was actually refining a razor vs. bringing it back (making it duller).

Thank you for your suggestion!
Taking a shave ready razor to it, as only on water without slurry?

 

[NPV]

Thank you for your suggestion!
Taking a shave ready razor to it, as only on water without slurry?

I'd use slurry, and by shave ready I mean something that is capable of shaving but something you aren't 100% pleased with. It seems like some recommend diluting the slurry down to water and others just work the slurry until it is broken down never diluting it. I've done both and I am still experimenting. I have noticed that diamond plate slurry worked with no dilutions creates a smoother edge (for me with my stone) than a diluted Tomo slurry, the Tomo has produced a keener edge. But I'm still testing this out and as always YMMV.

 

[MO1]

I'd use slurry, and by shave ready I mean something that is capable of shaving but something you aren't 100% pleased with. It seems like some recommend diluting the slurry down to water and others just work the slurry until it is broken down never diluting it. I've done both and I am still experimenting. I have noticed that diamond plate slurry worked with no dilutions creates a smoother edge (for me with my stone) than a diluted Tomo slurry, the Tomo has produced a keener edge. But I'm still testing this out and as always YMMV.

Thank you!
For how long do you work the slurry?
Do you use some preassure then as you progress ease up on it? Or is just light preassure from start to finish the way to go?

 

[alex1921]

True.
it is really hard though. Smooth surface and took some time to lap it. Although from what i understand that is not only what matters.
Will probably put a razor to it tomorrow.
My first Jnat and my plan is to make a slurry with my atoma 400 (it is well broken in).
Any pointers or suggestions as how i should approach it?

I sort of get a sense on the stone by lapping it, see how hard it is.

My usual testing goes, 1k chosera, 1200 Atoma slurry and see what does it do to the edge under the scope. Here and there I find a speeder and it can take you all the way to finish. Usually it doesn't.

Next step would be go up on synthetics, maybe 8k and try to finish with koma/tomo.
Slurry dilution or not depends on the stone, fineness, the initial amount of slurry and density of slurry. If you start with a small not dense amount then yeah dont dilute. I you raise Atoma slurry to take you all the way from 1k then I do.

That's the thing with Jnats. You just have to experiment because different stones like different things but as a general rule I dont finish on water unless the stone is soft and I dont finish on concentrated slurry. Just a preference based on how my stones behave and how my shaves turn out.

Add to that the fact that not all razors are of the same hardness and you see why counting laps makes absolutely no sense. I was honing a very hard tempered Iwasaki, underestimated it and rushed it. The shave sucked and I was using a well known stone to me so it was obvious that it was my fault and not the stone. Spent more time and was rewarded with an excellent shave.

All three gents, Alex, Keith and Doc have videos on YT on honing. See what they do and create a plan of attack. Dont change too many variables and play around.

 

[Namkcakram]

I sort of get a sense on the stone by lapping it, see how hard it is.

My usual testing goes, 1k chosera, 1200 Atoma slurry and see what does it do to the edge under the scope. Here and there I find a speeder and it can take you all the way to finish. Usually it doesn't.

Next step would be go up on synthetics, maybe 8k and try to finish with koma/tomo.
Slurry dilution or not depends on the stone, fineness, the initial amount of slurry and density of slurry. If you start with a small not dense amount then yeah dont dilute. I you raise Atoma slurry to take you all the way from 1k then I do.

That's the thing with Jnats. You just have to experiment because different stones like different things but as a general rule I dont finish on water unless the stone is soft and I dont finish on concentrated slurry. Just a preference based on how my stones behave and how my shaves turn out.

Add to that the fact that not all razors are of the same hardness and you see why counting laps makes absolutely no sense. I was honing a very hard tempered Iwasaki, underestimated it and rushed it. The shave sucked and I was using a well known stone to me so it was obvious that it was my fault and not the stone. Spent more time and was rewarded with an excellent shave.

All three gents, Alex, Keith and Doc have videos on YT on honing. See what they do and create a plan of attack. Dont change too many variables and play around.

WHAT HE SAID! Should be a permanent post.

If I had followed internet wisdom with My current favorite base stone and tried water then DMT for a prescribed lap count, I never would’ve gotten a great shave. It needs a softer fine Tomo to reach peak performance. Even though it is a very fine stone itself, the results on water or DMT 1200 just aren’t anywhere near what it can do with nagura slurry.

Counting laps is silly

 

[MO1]

Thank you all for your information.
I put my titan stainless to the stone today, reason why is that i had no idea how long i was going to work the stone, but i wanted to be thourough so seemed like the safest bet, as i could probably get rust spots on my carbon steel razors if im at it for too long.

Reset the bevel on my shapton glass 2k, worked a slurry with my atoma 400 and worked it abit.
It remove the 2k scratches pretty quick and gave it a hazy look.

This is the slurry that i started with and worked with abit.

But not close to a shave ready finish so i kept working the slurry.
The feedback was difficult for me as the sound was about the same through the process, and the feel aswell.
Must have been at it over an hour or maybe 2.
I can see now why people use nagura lol.

Checked the edge through a 120x microscope through the process, edge looked very clean but not refined.
It started to look refined at the end when the slurry was light and well worked.

Wife was making dinner so i stopped there, even though i wanted to work the light slurry abit more.
Washed the stone and did water only laps until i finally got some feedback in resistance.
After a thourough stropping on linen and leather it passes the hanging hair test at about 1/2.
However it has that smooth slicing feeling i like but testing it on my arm hair, it feels like its slicing slowly. Needs to be abit keener. Shave will probably be comfortable but not close.
But i will test shave with it tomorrow.

 

[cugel]

Just my opinion but that seems like an awfully long time to work on that hone, maybe you over-honed and killed the edge. Alex Gilmore has numerous videos on his YT channel showing how he does his diamond "nagura" honing. Now Mr. Gilmore has lots of experience and superb rocks, but I don't think I have ever seen him do more than 100 strokes/side. Generally, far far less. After a couple of minutes using circles on a diamond slurry (after a bevel setter like you mentioned) you should be almost there and start diluting if you choose. Any stone that won't do that after a few minutes, is probably not going to be suitable for this technique and you may need mikawa naguras. A really nice JNAT finisher will remove scratches fast with a diamond slurry. The slurry's color should change fast indicative of steel being removed. Make sure that bevel is set! It should shave arm hair with ease and pop.

I would keep practicing and I bet you will get there! It took me awhile to get fairly consistent results and sometimes I still get a poor edge. keep us posted.

 

[mawashi]

Thank you all for your information.
I put my titan stainless to the stone today, reason why is that i had no idea how long i was going to work the stone, but i wanted to be thourough so seemed like the safest bet, as i could probably get rust spots on my carbon steel razors if im at it for too long.

Reset the bevel on my shapton glass 2k, worked a slurry with my atoma 400 and worked it abit.
It remove the 2k scratches pretty quick and gave it a hazy look.
View attachment 965366
This is the slurry that i started with and worked with abit.
View attachment 965367
But not close to a shave ready finish so i kept working the slurry.
The feedback was difficult for me as the sound was about the same through the process, and the feel aswell.
Must have been at it over an hour or maybe 2.
I can see now why people use nagura lol.

Checked the edge through a 120x microscope through the process, edge looked very clean but not refined.
It started to look refined at the end when the slurry was light and well worked.
View attachment 965370
Wife was making dinner so i stopped there, even though i wanted to work the light slurry abit more.
Washed the stone and did water only laps until i finally got some feedback in resistance.
After a thourough stropping on linen and leather it passes the hanging hair test at about 1/2.
However it has that smooth slicing feeling i like but testing it on my arm hair, it feels like its slicing slowly. Needs to be abit keener. Shave will probably be comfortable but not close.
But i will test shave with it tomorrow.

Hi M01,

Thanks for the info about the jnat. 1 hour is quite a long time but then again the titan is ss.
I think the more experienced guys can chime in as to how to improve the edge.

Cheers,

Mawashi

 

[MO1]

Thank you guys for your support!
The slurry removes scratches pretty quickly, and metal aswell, the color of the slurry doesnt change that fast, or maybe it does? Color is brownish and can only notice it getting darker when its diluted.
I am sure i set the bevel.
At this point i have more confidence to put a good edge on my razors from my coticule.
Could maybe be overhoning... but i see no microshipping so i dont think so.
The stone is very hard, and auto slurry not noticable. I think my next step will be to try naguras. Found tenjou, mejiro?(目白) and koma on rakuten for a reasonable price.
Looking at the info in Japanese on the naguras tenjou seems like the easiest stone to use. Mejiro close to koma in fineness but not as fine.
What are you experience with naguras?
Again, thank you for your support!

 

[Namkcakram]

Thank you guys for your support!
The slurry removes scratches pretty quickly, and metal aswell, the color of the slurry doesnt change that fast, or maybe it does? Color is brownish and can only notice it getting darker when its diluted.
I am sure i set the bevel.
At this point i have more confidence to put a good edge on my razors from my coticule.
Could maybe be overhoning... but i see no microshipping so i dont think so.
The stone is very hard, and auto slurry not noticable. I think my next step will be to try naguras. Found tenjou, mejiro?(目白) and koma on rakuten for a reasonable price.
Looking at the info in Japanese on the naguras tenjou seems like the easiest stone to use. Mejiro close to koma in fineness but not as fine.
What are you experience with naguras?
Again, thank you for your support!

Generally it’ll be tenjyou-Mejiro-Koma in increasing fineness, but they’re rock strata labels so you could stumble on a fine Mejiro that cuts like mid range Koma...

Devotees insist each one produces slurry that breaks down quite a bit so that tenjyou after use is finer than Mejiro fresh. That makes each stage almost two steps forward, one back then breaking down is another two steps forward. Plenty of people get by without Koma since the price is almost on par with other foreign white powders.

I’m lazy and have a full array of rocks to rub steel on and I don’t currently own any Shiro nagura because I think my tsushima Black nagura runs the full mid range spectrum faster and just as well. Some people swear the Shiro nagura are the best midrange progression ever, and it possible they have tougher beards and more sensitive skin and they feel something I don’t. You couldn’t convince me to pay Koma prices these days without a test drive though.

 

[MO1]

Thank namkcakram.
Ordered the nagura from rakuten. Found some koma for 35 dollars for a 95g piece. Lets hope its decent quality. tenjou and mejiro.

An update on the stone.
I think the particles dont break down fast enough, or i have too many large particles. I put the Diamond plate aside and took the backside of my coticule slurry stone, which is black slate if im not mistaken. I worked up a slurry with light preassure to avoid getting large particles in the slurry.
Made the edge keener, but still not perfect.
Possible i need a better progression, hence naguras. I have ordered a bunch of random natural naguras for about 5 bucks aswell. To try and pair with the base stone in case the slate is not letting me progress further.

Well see how it works, alot of work but alot of fun.
Ill keep you updated!

 

[Namkcakram]

Thank namkcakram.
Ordered the nagura from rakuten. Found some koma for 35 dollars for a 95g piece. Lets hope its decent quality. tenjou and mejiro.

An update on the stone.
I think the particles dont break down fast enough, or i have too many large particles. I put the Diamond plate aside and took the backside of my coticule slurry stone, which is black slate if im not mistaken. I worked up a slurry with light preassure to avoid getting large particles in the slurry.
Made the edge keener, but still not perfect.
Possible i need a better progression, hence naguras. I have ordered a bunch of random natural naguras for about 5 bucks aswell. To try and pair with the base stone in case the slate is not letting me progress further.

Well see how it works, alot of work but alot of fun.
Ill keep you updated!

Yeah it sounds like your slurry is either coarse or not breaking down, because coticules/BBW are supposed to be ~3u garnet abrasive particles and you can bet a garnet won’t break down in use. My base stone performs similarly it sounds like, and finding softer/finer slurry let me refine edges to a crazy keen level as well as seems to burnish/smooth the base stone surface making it possible to do water only or very diluted laps.

For $35 if it performs like Koma is supposed to, you got yourself a deal. From reputable sellers I’d buy from here it’s $1+ per gram, and I’d be far more likely to try a grab bag of various “tomo nagura” with some nice suita or something mixed in.

I ran a few new blades last night from DMT1200 up to Black Tsushima, and I forget just how nice that stone can be. If you don’t have a good midrange stone selection that could be a good one to look for, and it’s one I haven’t seen faked convincingly yet. The real ones are grey/black, THICK like brick dimensions, and always sealed with black lacquer straight from the old mines. Of course there’s a good chance you get a chunk of black Tsushima in a nagura grab bag as well.

 

[MO1]

Im sorry, i meant that i used the backside of the coticule slurry stone, the black slate side not the coticule side.(its glued on to it)
Although i guess i could try and progress with a light coticule slurry then move on to a light slurry worked with the black slate side.
Worth a try

 

[Namkcakram]

Im sorry, i meant that i used the backside of the coticule slurry stone, the black slate side not the coticule side.(its glued on to it)
Although i guess i could try and progress with a light coticule slurry then move on to a light slurry worked with the black slate side.
Worth a try

No that’s my fault I assumed it was backed by Belgian blue whetstone, which can seem like a slate but acts like a harder slower coticule with lower garnet content. There definitely are plenty of coticules that aren’t combined with a BBW backing.

Honed a few the rest of the way tonight.

 

[Ultimatezap]

Well, in keeping with the original intent (title anyway) of this topic, this just in, from So.

Nakayama, light blue. The stamps are coming off, and it's going under the well-worn 1200 Atoma. He swears it'll be the finest thing I've ever honed on.

It's so very pretty and even and nearly perfect (almost looks like a synthetic in its eveness) that I've no reason to doubt him.

Looking forward to giving it a run on a Böker silver steel tonight and shaving with it in the morning. This morning I used the razor off of my (supposed) Nakayama karasu (nice shave), but the karasu simply shouldn't be able to offer quite the fineness, as, well, it's not nearly as homogenous, right?

We'll see...

 

[PanL]

Well, in keeping with the original intent (title anyway) of this topic, this just in, from So.

View attachment 967403

Nakayama, light blue. The stamps are coming off, and it's going under the well-worn 1200 Atoma. He swears it'll be the finest thing I've ever honed on.

It's so very pretty and even and nearly perfect (almost looks like a synthetic in its eveness) that I've no reason to doubt him.

Looking forward to giving it a run on a Böker silver steel tonight and shaving with it in the morning. This morning I used the razor off of my (supposed) Nakayama karasu (nice shave), but the karasu simply shouldn't be able to offer quite the fineness, as, well, it's not nearly as homogenous, right?

We'll see...

That's a score. Was it from the personal collection or So picked it for you?