Short Story Reading Group "Why Don't You Dance?"

[Claudel Xerxes]

Welcome! Anyone who is interested is free to participate. No sign up list is necessary. The idea of this is that each week we will read a selected short story, then have a discussion on whatever we see fit involving the story. The structure of the discussions might change as we go on, but for right now, we'll keep it fairly open. Please, keep in mind that reading the thread comments before you've read the story might give spoilers or influence the way you read the story, so read past this initial post at your own discretion.

I've been humming and hawing about what short story to begin with as a first read, and have debated over specific genres, authors, topics, story lengths, and individual stories. This first story will be fairly middle of the road. So, it won't be a long nor difficult read, and the subject matter won't be considered very heavy nor deep. I do think there's enough substance and curiosity in the story to stir up a fair amount of discussion though. I'll wait until a few people have commented before I give my thoughts.

I thought about giving my reasons for selecting the story in this post as a way to set it up, but I won't do that this time. Please, let me know if that's something you guys might want in the future. If I did start doing that, I would be mindful not to give away spoilers, or anything that might ruin the read.

We'll probably let this one go at least a week until we move on to the next one. We can use the interest thread to discuss any suggestions, comments, concerns, or critiques about anything involving how these are conducted, suggested stories, and whatnot.

Without further ado, we'll start with "Why Don't You Dance?" by Raymond Carver.

 

[ByMyBeard]

It appears this story is fairly easy to find online, though I'm not 100% sure on the validity of the sources. If anyone finds a resource that is acceptable, can we share it here?

 

[luvmysuper]

It appears this story is fairly easy to find online, though I'm not 100% sure on the validity of the sources. If anyone finds a resource that is acceptable, can we share it here?

Google docs

Raymond Carver - Why Don't You Dance.pdf

docs.google.com

 

[luvmysuper]

Well, here's my take on it.

Spoiler

This is a very odd story, and though I enjoyed the mental exercise, it reminded me of the Jerry Seinfeld trope of telling a story that has no plot, simply activity.

I gather that a relationship has ended between himself and the woman of the house. Initially I believed it to be a tragic end, her unexpected passing, and that he was clearing the house the way you clear out things that remind you of something. Something that makes you think painful thoughts.
I thought his drinking from the very start, and through the story could be his way of drowning his feelings at the loss of his wife. But it came to me that it might just be that his wife did not pass away at all but was driven away by his constant drinking.

I was not sure if his moving the items out to the yard signified his advertising of a sale of the items, or if he had another reason for doing so. He had enabled power to all the electric devices, “and everything was connected” - ostensibly not just for proof that they worked, as could have been done with one extension cord, plugging in any single item that drew interest.
The fact that there were no prices on any items, and the fact that he accepted whatever number the boy tossed out indicates that perhaps he had moved the items out for some other purpose, and just went with the flow when the boy and girl assumed it was a yard sale.

His later admission that his neighbors had “thought they’d seen everything over here” is testament that things out of the ordinary had occurred and had been viewed by his neighbors with regularity. But we cannot know if these viewed things were part of the final tragedy with his wife, related to his drinking or something else entirely. Something that we, along for the ride, can only surmise.

I gathered that he was a lonely man, pausing before moving on, and in his loneliness, he was trying desperately to reach out to the couple. Some kind of connection. He was doubtful that he had made such a connection as he was unable to interpret whether the look on their faces was benign or malignant. The author further intimated the mans attempt at making a connection in the description of how he had gifted the record player and records to the couple, who unlike the man, found no value whatsoever in his gift.

The closing of the story, where the girl had tried to talk it out, trying to get a clue through telling others, what was really happening with this man and his belongings in the front yard.
She was never able to explain away the unknowns that she experienced, which finally resulted in her just giving up on it and she quit trying to understand what had happened.

And that is the heart of the story. We will never know for certain why this lonely man was alone, without his wife, or why he had moved all his belongings out to the yard. We do not know why he was desperately trying to make a connection with the couple, or even what finally became of the man himself.
So, while we can relate key elements of the story, we may imagine why he did this or that, but in the end, we just cannot know, and after a time, we will stop trying to understand something beyond the realm of knowing with any certainty whatsoever.
The author of the story has placed us in the exact position that the girl wound up in. “She kept talking. She told everyone. There was more to it, and she was trying to get it talked out. After a time, she quit trying.”

 

[Toothpick]

I didn't realize short stories would be so weird

Spoiler

Was it a dream? Was the man divorced? or widowed? Or maybe the man was imagining himself and his departed wife. I doubt I'm intellectual enough to think much more about it.

 

[Toothpick]

What are your thoughts @Claudel Xerxes ?

 

[luvmysuper]

Did anyone else read this?
Two or three guys discussing a read doesn't get my hopes up on a continuing discussion thread.

 

[emwolf]

Just found this thread and I'll read and give my take before reading anyone else's. Packed away my Raymond Carver collection last year, so thank you for the link.

 

[Claudel Xerxes]

What are your thoughts @Claudel Xerxes ?

I had my high school reunion this past weekend, and caught a nasty cold, so I'm a bit behind with my intended write up. I'm typing it up right now, but I'm also being more detailed than I thought, so I might not have the energy to finish tonight. If I don't post it tonight, then I will tomorrow.

 

[emwolf]

I love Carver stories because they are so specific and simultaneously so vague. We don't know the situation with the man and his wife, but its demise seems pretty permanent to the point of putting the furniture on the lawn. The young couple, particularly the young woman, are pretty frisky. But there's something that is passed between the middle aged man and the young woman that has left her needing to "talk it out." For those who enjoy Carver, Robert Altman's film Short Cuts is based mainly on Carver stories.

 

[beginish]

I am a huge fan of Raymond Carver and this short story did not disappoint at all.

Spoiler

As has been said, this is a story without a plot. It’s constructed from a set of observations hinting at something that happened, without actually saying what that is, so you’re left to your imagination to construct the backstory.

My head being where it is right now went sinister. Stripping away bedding in boxes and putting the bedroom and kitchen set out on the lawn for people to take away. In retrospect, it had a Rear Window feel, where I imagined the missus was in the boxes. The neighbors had seen everything, which I took to mean very public knockdown dragouts.

All of this was reinforced by the girl’s difficulty reconciling what had happened and the odd role she played in a weird night on a front lawn buying furniture, drinking whiskey and garden spigot water, and drunkenly nuzzling the neck of a guy who ‘did something.’ Tom Waits’s classic spoken word piece ‘What’s He Building in There’ comes to mind.

Loved it and my mind keeps playing out a host of other possibilities, none happy. Carver creates situations where the telling of the story is done by the reader.

 

[abies]

I liked this a lot, more the more I let it sit in my mind, although reading some of your reactions I wish I was more familiar with Carver's other works, as I can see how it might have led me to interpret things differently. There's an ambiguity that's central to it, that will be filled in according to the reader.

Spoiler

I can't figure out if it matters whether he's having a lawn sale of sorts, or putting everything out in the lawn as a dare or confrontation with the neighborhood, or what. It seems early on that he doesn't blame people for not stopping, which undercuts the idea he's trying to sell anything, but then again maybe he doesn't care, or is reflecting on his poor planning.

There's a contrast to me at the end between the girl, who seems to think the man is desperate, and my own reading of him as being unconcerned or detached.

 

[beginish]

I liked this a lot, more the more I let it sit in my mind, although reading some of your reactions I wish I was more familiar with Carver's other works, as I can see how it might have led me to interpret things differently. There's an ambiguity that's central to it, that will be filled in according to the reader.

Spoiler

I can't figure out if it matters whether he's having a lawn sale of sorts, or putting everything out in the lawn as a dare or confrontation with the neighborhood, or what. It seems early on that he doesn't blame people for not stopping, which undercuts the idea he's trying to sell anything, but then again maybe he doesn't care, or is reflecting on his poor planning.

There's a contrast to me at the end between the girl, who seems to think the man is desperate, and my own reading of him as being unconcerned or detached.

Whatever other things the neighbors saw over the years, it does sound like this guy has some need to play it out publicly. He didn’t just put the stuff out, he hooked it up so that it all functioned too.

 

[Toothpick]

That's the part that makes me think it was a dream or his imagination while reminiscing. Like the "outside lawn" was his mind (imagination). And the young couple was actually him and his wife. Perhaps shopping for a first home when they were married a long time ago. Or moving in to that very home. And then the dancing and connection he had with the young woman was him reminiscing ya know, remembering back when.

I'll have to read it again.

 

[emwolf]

That's the part that makes me think it was a dream or his imagination while reminiscing. Like the "outside lawn" was his mind (imagination). And the young couple was actually him and his wife. Perhaps shopping for a first home when they were married a long time ago. Or moving in to that very home. And then the dancing and connection he had with the young woman was him reminiscing ya know, remembering back when.

I'll have to read it again.

love that interpretation. Carver is so open for that type of reading since he's so minimalist.

 

[beginish]

love that interpretation. Carver is so open for that type of reading since he's so minimalist.

Agreed. That interpretation had not occurred to me.

 

[Claudel Xerxes]

Sorry, everyone. A lot of unexpected things, on top of expected things, have happened since my last post. I haven't read anything since my last post either. I'll catch up tomorrow.

 

[Messygoon]

---

Spoiler

I saw a series of opposites coming together. Young and old. Nasty and nice. Private and public. Light and dark. Valuable treasures undervalued. A broken man, whose wife had passed, leaving him with memories lubricated in alcohol. The dance brought the opposites together for a touching crossroad in time, where he relives a cherished memory, and she looks ahead to an unknown future.

 

[Claudel Xerxes]

After a high school reunion, wedding, catching COVID, my phone breaking, and a few other things, I'm finally getting caught up with this. I still haven't read any posts after post 9, so I'll read those posts, and probably comment on some, this evening.

Spoiler

What I enjoy about this story is that there are many ways to interpret different elements of it.

It starts out with the man pouring another drink and looking out the window. Having this line open the story makes me think that "another" is an indication that it's habitual, and looking out the window is him either looking out and reflecting on what situation lead to the current state of things, or maybe it's him feeling trapped and looking out to a life he's separated from by the walls of his house. It seems fairly clear that the stripped mattress and the description of "His side, her side" indicates that something happened to the relationship that he once was in. Due to the description of "another drink" it seems clear that drinking is/was an important part of why he's in present situation. Also, the fact that his bedroom items were as they were inside makes me think that he lacks the means to change. I think this is emphasized by the extension cords to the electronics, and that "Things worked, no different from how it was when they were inside." The fact that people looked on and observed, "But no one stopped" and that he did not either, again, perhaps points to an inability to stop drinking.

Part of what makes this story interesting is that the story now advances and shifts to the boy and girl approaching the property and thinking it's a yard sale. They seem young, but are developed enough in their relationship to have an apartment together and looking for furnishings for it. He is fairly hesitant and cautious, while she seems more adventurous and comfortable. He is more worrisome and unsure, while she is confident and savvy. The fact that he denies her request for a kiss makes me think that there might issues in their relationship.

When the man returns home, there's no indication that he's surprised by the couple's presence. That, along with the fact that he is quickly able to respond to the price of the bed when asked, makes me think that all of the belongings are indeed out in preparation of a yard sale. Or, at least, they are out with the intention of getting rid of them. If at one time the man had sentimental attachment to the furniture, he no longer does.

The phrase that he uses once the bed and TV are negotiated is interesting to me. The declarative, "You'll want a drink," opposed to asking them if they want one, makes me think that he almost has a fatalist attitude. Perhaps he thinks that the kids buying the furniture together will ultimately end up in the same situation that he is in. Since the girl knew that she wanted water in her whiskey, it makes me think that she's had enough experience to know that's what she prefers. The boy grinning at the glass of whiskey, but not drinking it makes me think that he has little drinking experience. This is also why he says that he's drunk a little latter, and she insists that he's not. It emphasizes his hesitant and cautious nature (possibly stemming from lack of experience) in contrast to her comfortable and savvy (more experienced) nature.

When the man tells the kids to make an offer for the record-player, it's nodding back to the beginning of the story where he decides that he wasn't going to stop, just like the cars passing his yard.

I think the story gets particularly interesting once they've all had drinks and the man asks them if they would like to dance. Of course, the boy is hesitant, but the girl is comfortable with it. When the boy refuses another dance, the girl asks the man for a dance. Her earlier assumption of, "they must be desperate or something," is possibly foreshadowing to her desperation for a kiss from the boy, and a dance from the boy, then the man. She also repeats this phrase to the man as they dance.

The man's comment of the neighbors having seen everything reinforces the suggestion that there was likely a nasty divorce or separation that is or was occurring. The girl's response of, "let them watch," again, indicates that she has confidence in the awkward situation, and that she has possibly been in a similarly uncomfortable scenario before. Since they embrace and she pulls the man into her, I feel that she might be finding more companionship in an older, more experienced, and more like-minded man. Maybe the man's comment of, "You'll want a drink," is alluding to the boy not being what the girl wants, and he'll ultimately need to drink to cope with eventually loosing the girl. After the man and girl start to dance, the boy is not mentioned anymore in the story.

The girl clearly went along with, and even instigated some of the events in the story, so when she's telling everyone about it weeks later she's acting like it was absurd and the items were "crappy." Possibly in a way to absolve her guilt for being an accomplice and provocateur in the situation. "She kept talking," like someone might do during a confession. What I absolutely love about the story is the line, "There was more to it, and she was trying to get it talked out." It really drives home the idea that there's a lot that the story is leaving out. There's a lot to be interpreted by what information Raymond Carver gives us. Sometimes a smile, a nod, a look, a gesture can be far more than what is taken at face value.

As long winded as this is, there's even more that I could get into, but I never intended for this to be long as it already is. For now, I guess, I'll quit trying.

 

[Claudel Xerxes]

I love that some of you guys recognized there was no real plot. I had read the story many times throughout the past fifteen or so years, but had never really noticed that.