Shaving with the burr?

[Oilstone]

This is something I've been pondering lately. Allow me to share and then enlighten me on your experiences and thoughts on the matter.

About 6 years ago I was playing around with the Spyderco ceramic stones trying to figure out a good progression for razor honing. I did myself a disservice by always bouncing around between stones before getting a bullet proof progression. I digress.

I reached out to someone I respect on the matter and they said they used the UF naturally. It's well suited for the task. At the time I had the M and F stones as well.

"You lay the razor down on the stone and you lead with the cutting edge. That’s cutting into the stone, as if you were going to cut a piece out of the stone. When you finish the stroke you roll the razor over around the spine, so nothing effects the edge. And you repeat the stroke in the opposite direction. You need to do this until both bevels come together.." was one of the opening lines. I didn't tell him at the time I had been doing this for about 4 years so it was sage advice to give to anyone asking. It just lays the ground work for the next part of the store. Pay attention to the edge leading.

They said they used the UF to bring the bevel together. I would personally expedite this process with the use of a F or M depending on where the bevel is. They then suggested stropping on plain leather to bring about a burr.

"The burr looked like something out of a briar patch; it was very inconsistent. But that burr, for me, shaved the best. You couldn’t touch it with your finger because if you did it would bend or break the burr. So you had to be very delicate with the edge." Is quoted from the conversation.

Past experiences with a wire edge that snaps off into your face have been rather unpleasant and I'm not inclined to endure that again. Those wire edges are inconsistent and show up for me anyways as a white line above the apex.

The burr he is referring to must be something different entirely. I've never really seen a visible burr formed on edge leading strokes because it's abraded by the particles on the substrate and direction of the stroke. Burrs are easily formed using back honing or stropping strokes.

Is this a ceramics issue? An effect of the burnishing? I'm not sure.

It's one of those things that make me wonder. Has anyone else "shaved with the burr?"

Conventionally I've always looked for a nice clean apex with nothing extending past.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[Herrenberg]

Shaving with the burr makes no sense to me.

Sintered ceramic stones like the Spydercos are reputed to create little to no burr. Haven't played around enough to have an opinion about that. I get burrs with leading edge strokes on my hones, but they are much, much smaller than I'd get with trailing edge or scrubbing.

I think it can be hard to have a conversation about burrs because there's a lot of variation in how well people can detect small burrs with their fingers; I think my fingers are very sensitive to burrs, or I've just learned how to feel for them. So when people say they are not creating a burr, a part of me always wonders whether they are, and just can't feel it.

 

[Oilstone]

Shaving with the burr makes no sense to me.

Sintered ceramic stones like the Spydercos are reputed to create little to no burr. Haven't played around enough to have an opinion about that. I get burrs with leading edge strokes on my hones, but they are much, much smaller than I'd get with trailing edge or scrubbing.

I think it can be hard to have a conversation about burrs because there's a lot of variation in how well people can detect small burrs with their fingers; I think my fingers are very sensitive to burrs, or I've just learned how to feel for them. So when people say they are not creating a burr, a part of me always wonders whether they are, and just can't feel it.

I agree with you. That's what I'm confused about, the burr he spoke of and it's purpose.

With edge alternating strokes and razor appropriate pressure I don't often create any burrs. If going off with some pressure using back and forth strokes on a 1k to rip a bevel in yes but they're large. Not usually an issue to remove before progressing further.

At the end of honing and stropping the burr would eventually weaken during shaving and snap off or it could roll due to impact with hair follicles.

I guess the confusing thing to me is he trying to raise a burr on the UF and strop it off? Thus leaving a super refined edge. Is the burr remaining and used to shave with until it breaks down and snaps off or it rolls over, and then stropping to stand back up?

I can definitely see in a loupe a burr and feel one with the TPT.

Edits for grammatical errors.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Any edge that a mere touch with a fingertip will spoil, will likewise be spoiled by your face and whiskers.

The purpose of the strop is to straighten and align the edge, and it does not raise a burr.

I hate to tell you not to listen to anyone, but I will tell you that I would stop listening to the guy telling you to do these things that for me, are pretty way out.

I suggest you find someone on this or another STRAIGHT RAZOR SHAVING AND HONING forum, a member of long standing and good reputation, to follow. Get the exact tools that he uses, use them exactly the same way that he uses them, DO NOT mix and match techniques from different honers, do not add or omit anything from your chosen guru's method, do not even ask if THIS or THAT would work better than THIS, just follow his way exactly, precisely, in every tiniest detail, and you should end up with the same results that he does, in very short order. Don't follow someone with obviously whack ideas, or someone who does not shave daily with a straight razor. A path well traveled will keep you out of the quicksand and stickerbushes a lot better than bushwhacking cross country following your own mental compass. Master one man's technique and then do your experimenting, if you want to do this painlessly.

If you are already getting good edges with a particular honing style, you should be able to simply continue doing so. If you want to switch to a different method, find one that checks all the boxes, or I should say find a master who checks all the boxes, and follow HIM until you master HIS way.

Nothing wrong with trying crazy stuff, once you are pretty good at one or two sure fire methods of putting a great edge on a razor. You can always revert to the method that you already know, when the weird stuff disappoints you, which it usually will.

 

[Oilstone]

Slash, while I do appreciate your suggestions I have been honing for some years now and get edges I love time and time again. This whole post was a more philosophical topic to discuss as I like to experiment. I'm not advocating for these ideas or the reasoning behind them.

I'm new to this forum but I've been hanging out on the other one that used to be big since '14.

 

[JPO]

"Is this a ceramics issue? An effect of the burnishing? I'm not sure"

I have tried the UF spyderco with razors. It did not work for me. I think it needs allot more pressure then you are able to apply with a razor without flexing the bevel too much.
You end up burnishing and creating a wire edge. At least that was my experience.
This is where Arkansas stones shine. Somehow they are able to burnish and cut at the same time. Hard ceramic stones fall short here in my opinion.
If I had to make it work, it might produce a good edge. I just did not feel it was worth the effort.
I even tried using it as a hard base stone and jnat slurry.

 

[natto]

They then suggested stropping on plain leather to bring about a burr.

Some Germans use the term burr instead of edge. That pairs with beard instead of burr. That terminology was common on older german razor forums.

 

[TSENG]

After shaving, will the skin feel itchy for a long time? Is it comfortable?

 

[Oilstone]

Some Germans use the term burr instead of edge. That pairs with beard instead of burr. That terminology was common on older german razor forums.

Very interesting, that could explain what he was talking about. Maybe using different terms then the ones us straight razor users have become accustomed to using.

 

[Oilstone]

After shaving, will the skin feel itchy for a long time? Is it comfortable?

I have no idea, I don't do shave with a burr. Don't condone it.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Some Germans use the term burr instead of edge. That pairs with beard instead of burr. That terminology was common on older german razor forums.

Also in Italian, the word "filo" can refer to a razor's edge but it also means "wire."

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The goal is to not intentionally make a burr on a razor, but there is always a burr, when you make a micro burr, it becomes the shaving edge.

Honing edge leading can minimize a burr, but you cannot see the edge with less than 1000X magnification.

It is not an issue, if you cut off the burr by lightly jointing the edge on a stone, (usually a single lite stroke on the stone face or corner) This cuts off the burr and makes a straight edge. Then you just need to bring the bevels back to meeting an edge, that is already straight.

If the bevels were ground flat, to the proper angle and were meeting they can be brought back to meeting in about 10 laps with a much minimized burr.

If you make a large burr then break it off, you will have a micro ragged edge, that must be polished straight without recreating a large burr, this is technique driven, where a lot of honers have an issue.

Never had much luck with the UF for razors, you really need to be in the 6-8k range to really straighten the edge. Most folks rate the UF in the 2-4k range, maybe 6k…Though some stones can perform way above their grit rating, I don’t think the UF is one of them, at least not for razors.

Straight razor honing unlike knife sharpening is not about just sharp. Sharp is easy. Keen and Comfortable is the trick.

 

[JPO]

Part of the reason (not the only reason) a burr forms is because the rate of abrasion is proportional to the pressure over a given area. The bevel plane is stiffer at the base then at the tip. I.e. you are removing more material closer to the bevel shoulder,
which makes it difficult to get good enough contact close to the cutting edge.
This is particularly a problem when the bevel angle becomes too small. It is also the reason why adding a layer off tape at the end of the progression can solve it, by creating a micro bevel.
Using a convex stone does the same thing if you finish on a flat stone.

Basic principle of backbevelling with convex stone and finishing on a flat stone.
The effect is quite small, so in reality the bevel will flex a little, but you will be moving your resultant force contact point.

 

[Gamma]

...suggested stropping on plain leather to bring about a burr.

But that burr, for me, shaved the best. You couldn’t touch it with your finger because if you did it would bend or break the burr...

Uhm.....no. Not even worth discussing it tbh.

 

[Oilstone]

Uhm.....no. Not even worth discussing it tbh.

I thought it was worth a bit of unpacking as it caught me off guard. I wouldn't have made the thread if I didn't want to know why and how he shaved with this burr.

 

[Gamma]

When you unpack nonsense, all you have a pile of messy nonsense.

 

[Loner16]

I thought it was worth a bit of unpacking as it caught me off guard. I wouldn't have made the thread if I didn't want to know why and how he shaved with this burr.

It's OK to ask questions and seek advice... That's how we learn.

 

[Oilstone]

It's OK to ask questions and seek advice... That's how we learn.

Couldn't agree with you more.