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Shaving Off Stones

Being a film and paste user I am now curious about your experiences with shaving off stones. I just got a Thuringian and am learning to do constructive x strokes.

I am thinking that unless I damage an edge, I will never need to re-hone a shave ready edge, just touch up with the Thuringian. I am curious if how a shave off stones feel compared to films.

I assume even with stones a finish on leather strop is in order. Correct?
 
After watching Murray Carter's videos where he hones, spine leading I've been experimenting with stropping off a coticule, the idea being that I don't need to take a strop when I travel. I have a hard La Grise that will produce a very good shaving edge. The final finish works but I'm struggling earlier in the progression. With coticules I strop on leather halfway through the progression and so far I have not been able to skip this step.
 
After watching Murray Carter's videos where he hones, spine leading I've been experimenting with stropping off a coticule, the idea being that I don't need to take a strop when I travel. I have a hard La Grise that will produce a very good shaving edge. The final finish works but I'm struggling earlier in the progression. With coticules I strop on leather halfway through the progression and so far I have not been able to skip this step.
Wow, stropping mid progression.
 
Wow, stropping mid progression.
I got the idea from Dr Matt videos on coticules. His hypothesis was that coticules only work with water. He uses synthetics - then strops - then finishes on water with a coticule.

Then I watched Murray Carter - a well respected knife maker - who has a somewhat controversial way of sharpening razors. (A few years back there was a load of controversy on the forums about his technuque) He does insane grit jumps, doesn't use slurry either, and hones with a spine leading X stroke.

I wasn't convinced by the no slurry approach of either gentlemen and just substituted Dr Matt's synth progression with a soft coti progression using slurry, stropped with leather and then finished on a hard coticule under water. To strop I use Carter's spine leading X strokes under water.

It all worked well. I have tried it several times but it never works unless I strop with leather somewhere in the progression. So I can finish on a stone, no leather, but I do need leather at some point. Which is annoying because I have a minimalist dream of one razor one stone, nothing else.
 
I got the idea from Dr Matt videos on coticules. His hypothesis was that coticules only work with water. He uses synthetics - then strops - then finishes on water with a coticule.

Then I watched Murray Carter - a well respected knife maker - who has a somewhat controversial way of sharpening razors. (A few years back there was a load of controversy on the forums about his technuque) He does insane grit jumps, doesn't use slurry either, and hones with a spine leading X stroke.

I wasn't convinced by the no slurry approach of either gentlemen and just substituted Dr Matt's synth progression with a soft coti progression using slurry, stropped with leather and then finished on a hard coticule under water. To strop I use Carter's spine leading X strokes under water.

It all worked well. I have tried it several times but it never works unless I strop with leather somewhere in the progression. So I can finish on a stone, no leather, but I do need leather at some point. Which is annoying because I have a minimalist dream of one razor one stone, nothing else.


Wow, you've just blown the lid of conventional wisdom. I love it. Do I need a:a29: face mask and air tanks for submarine honing?
 
I second the Dr. Matt videos. Very interesting. Entertaining as well.

I always strop after honing.

To me, 1 um film, Naniwa 12k, and Coti/Thuri (Maggard edge if his website is up-to-date) all feel kind of similar to me. Possibly the Coti/Thuri edges that I've tried were a bit more comfortable, but I can't quantify whether that came with a loss of some keeness because the perceived change was so small. In any case, all of these edges let me get a relaxed shave without any irritation.

Now to give you a frame of reference, I consider the 0.1 um diamond paste edge to be significantly different than the above edges. So hopefully that gives you an idea of what I mean by "similar" and "significantly different."
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
I second the Dr. Matt videos. Very interesting. Entertaining as well.

I always strop after honing.

To me, 1 um film, Naniwa 12k, and Coti/Thuri (Maggard edge if his website is up-to-date) all feel kind of similar to me. Possibly the Coti/Thuri edges that I've tried were a bit more comfortable, but I can't quantify whether that came with a loss of some keeness because the perceived change was so small. In any case, all of these edges let me get a relaxed shave without any irritation.

Now to give you a frame of reference, I consider the 0.1 um diamond paste edge to be significantly different than the above edges. So hopefully that gives you an idea of what I mean by "similar" and "significantly different."
What is your opinion of the .1u edge?
 
I think the 0.1 um edge (considering only my own personal examples of such) cuts significantly easier/better but requires a lighter and more careful hand. This past Monday I shaved with a 0.1 um edge. I was amazed at how quickly and efficiently it took care of my chin, which is still a tough area to get done closely and evenly for me. On the other hand, I got two small cuts (not really blood-drawing ones, more like tissue damage cuts that get irritated a few hours after the shave). I also may have gotten some slight irritation on one of my jawlines - certain spots on my face are already getting irritated due to the colder weather.

A DE analogy would be like comparing a Merkur straight bar razor with an Astra blade vs. a Piccolo with a Feather blade. If you are used to the mild razor setup and you use the same technique with a more aggressive setup, you probably won't have the best shave.

The biggest problem I have currently with the 0.1 um edge is a psychological one. As a newbie, I'm just afraid of the keener edge. I am just starting to get confident with the 1 um / 12k edge, and I am able to wield the blade with confidence and try out different strokes/angles/stretching techniques without fear. When I use a 0.1 um edge, it just feels like my mind is totally dominated by thoughts of trying not to get cut. I think when I go back to experimenting with the keener edge, I'm going to get there in steps. E.g., go from 12k to 0.5 um CBN. Get used to that. Then try the 0.25 um CBN. Get used to that. Then last go for the 0.1 um diamond (this is the sequence of pastes that I have). That way I can adjust my technique appropriately along the way.
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
I’m a bit over 200 shaves now - 220 days since I started and I don’t find that there is any more chance of nicks or cuts with either 12k or .1u. Both are good edges. I just find the .1u to be easier and still comfortable. Others have found the .5 and .25 edges to be uncomfortable but smooth out with the use of .1u. so the .5u and .25u are used to get from the 1u to the .1u efficiently. I’ve been using .1u CBN to finish for a couple of months and still can’t tell the difference so use whatever you want there. Going finer than .1u has proven not worth the effort. @Slash McCoy has tried and posted on this point. In the meantime, shave with the edge you’re confident with. As you continue shaving, muscle memory will eventually do the driving and it will become “just shaving”. I can’t imagine shaving any other way any longer.
 
Isn't this fun? I mean, we are using a piece of steel to perform a daily practice of having no facial hair. There are so many options and more opinions of how to get there.
 
Yeah, I'm loving it @Twelvefret . Wouldn't trade it for any other shaving method at this point, that's for sure. The properties of straight razors and how they cut hair is just amazing. With DE, it always seemed like you were chasing a sharper blade or a more aggressive razor to get a closer shave. But even the duller straights seem to be able to cut very close with one or two swipes. It is amazing that something can cut so close yet be so gentle on the skin.

Thanks for the assurance, @steveclarkus . Looking back on my improvement so far, I'm amazed. On my first day with the straight, I thought "holy hell, this hurts" and "what did I get myself into?" Trying to shave my upper lip felt like pulling hair out with tweezers. Now I can take a blade with the same level of keeness and do pretty good WTG and XTG passes, bringing parts of my upper lip to BBS. Still having trouble getting my upper lip and chin to a uniform, even/close shave, but that'll come. It is still improving every week.
 
So, I finished honing the #49 Herder 15/16. I stopped on leather, then made some slurry on the Thuringian and did some laps adding water and finishing on clear. I did a limited shave and I think it's good.
 
Think of your methods and compare them to what manufacturers did in the 30’s to prepare a razor for shipping shave ready. I think honing has become a hobby in itself separate from shaving with and maintaining a straight razor.

Enjoy the rabbit hole :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
Think of your methods and compare them to what manufacturers did in the 30’s to prepare a razor for shipping shave ready. I think honing has become a hobby in itself separate from shaving with and maintaining a straight razor.

Enjoy the rabbit hole :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You are exactly correct. Honing is a hobby and it is not my hobby. I use the cheapest simplest and most precise “Method” available just so I can shave - something I do enjoy.
 
So, I finished honing the #49 Herder 15/16. I stopped on leather, then made some slurry on the Thuringian and did some laps adding water and finishing on clear. I did a limited shave and I think it's good.

What is the goal of shaving right off of the Thuri w/o stropping? Does stropping hurt the edge (like Slash says the prep side does to a 0.1 um edge), or does it simply not add value? I personally haven't done too many trials trying to optimize stropping (including eliminating parts of it if it isn't adding value, either around honing or daily maintenance).
 
What is the goal of shaving right off of the Thuri w/o stropping? Does stropping hurt the edge (like Slash says the prep side does to a 0.1 um edge), or does it simply not add value? I personally haven't done too many trials trying to optimize stropping (including eliminating parts of it if it isn't adding value, either around honing or daily maintenance).
I followed the method . My Thuringian is about the same as 3 microns. I’m just curious mostly
 
Experimenting is great. Never know what you might find out. Shaving is interesting to me - a lot of times it seems like whenever I come to a conclusion, I correct myself with new evidence shortly thereafter... My technique, experience, and gear are constantly evolving, so that necessitates re-evaluation of key conclusions every so often...
 
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