Shavette to SR honing

[GeoWashRocks]

I've been using a parker shavette with feather blades for about 5 years. I inherited 5/8" Wade and Butcher that's been sitting in a drawer for decades. I finally sent it to a reputable hone master. I got it back and stropped it on canvas 10 times and the leather 25 times. The one thing I noticed while stropping was that one side of the blade made a high-pitched sound on the stroke and the other didn't. This morning was my 1st SR shave and it pulled, a lot. Dried it off, canvas 25 times and leather 100 times, much better. Still pulled, but it resulted in a nice smooth shave.

I've been told that a SR does not have the sharp edge of a laser cut double edge blade. On the other hand I heard several people say that a SR can deliver a smoother shave and just as close. The fellow who honed the WB used shapton Glass Water Stones in 1000, 4000, 8000, 16,000, and finish on a 30,000 grit. I own the higher grade King 1k/6k, and was planning on getting shapton pro 8k and 12k stones. However, It doesn't seem as though I'll do as well on my 12k stone as he will on his 30k.

I'm not of a mind to give up. I have the 5/8" WB, and in the last month I've purchased a 9/16" Anton Wingen, 6/8" Genco and lastly a 13/16" Imperial. I got these specific blades to learn how to hone. On the forums suggestion, I'm staying away from the higher end stuff until I know what I'm doing.

Any pearls of wisdom on why a razor finished on a 30k stone pulled? Thanks

 

[RumpleBearskin]

My first question would be whether the reputable honemiester was a straight user themselves that came recommended by other straight users. There's no certification that I know of, so credentials are word of mouth from experienced straight shavers.

If your honemiester has street cred, then I would contact them with your concerns and see if they can "make it right" for you. Everyone has their own idea of the perfect edge and the honemiester may have guessed wrong for you.

If they don't have the street cred, then I'd suggest you find one that does so you can experience a great edge to set the bar for your own efforts.

As a side note, technique has a lot to do with how the shave feels as well as the end results. Too steep of an angle is more scraping than cutting and may feel "draggy" because of that. While shavettes look like straights, they generally require a slightly different technique IMHO.

Best of luck!

 

[GeoWashRocks]

"If they don't have the street cred, then I'd suggest you find one that does so you can experience a great edge to set the bar for your own efforts."

Great suggestion will do, Thanks

 

[Proinsias]

Straights are different. It's seems quite a common complaint that a straight razor isn't sharp enough even when coming from reputable honers.

Been a while but I think general advice when you get a razor fresh from a honemiester and are new to this is to shave with it straight out the packet to eliminate damage introduced via stropping technique.

I wouldn't worry much about 12k vs 30K stones, 12k should be fine, if you need more then pick up some ~0.5 micron, or less, abrasives which can be had for pennies.

 

[stone and strop]

I've been using a parker shavette with feather blades for about 5 years. I inherited 5/8" Wade and Butcher that's been sitting in a drawer for decades. I finally sent it to a reputable hone master. I got it back and stropped it on canvas 10 times and the leather 25 times. The one thing I noticed while stropping was that one side of the blade made a high-pitched sound on the stroke and the other didn't. This morning was my 1st SR shave and it pulled, a lot. Dried it off, canvas 25 times and leather 100 times, much better. Still pulled, but it resulted in a nice smooth shave.

I've been told that a SR does not have the sharp edge of a laser cut double edge blade. On the other hand I heard several people say that a SR can deliver a smoother shave and just as close. The fellow who honed the WB used shapton Glass Water Stones in 1000, 4000, 8000, 16,000, and finish on a 30,000 grit. I own the higher grade King 1k/6k, and was planning on getting shapton pro 8k and 12k stones. However, It doesn't seem as though I'll do as well on my 12k stone as he will on his 30k.

I'm not of a mind to give up. I have the 5/8" WB, and in the last month I've purchased a 9/16" Anton Wingen, 6/8" Genco and lastly a 13/16" Imperial. I got these specific blades to learn how to hone. On the forums suggestion, I'm staying away from the higher end stuff until I know what I'm doing.

Any pearls of wisdom on why a razor finished on a 30k stone pulled? Thanks

Quite honestly, if he is using the 16k and 30k then he probably is not the professional honer you are looking for.
Try one more reputable honer from here.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You are missing the shavette edge. Most straight razor edges lack the cutting power of a fresh DE or long disposable blade as used in a shavette. However, men have shaved with straight razors in some form or another since shaving began. Generally, you have to do a little more of the work with a straight. The shavette, you simply have to keep from cutting yourself and it just works. Try adding a bit of a slice to your stroke. Not much, and be sure the skin is nice and tight, because while it increases cutting power, it does so for both whiskers, and skin. If you have been dragging the spine of your shavette on your face, you will likely need to raise the spine off your face with a gap of one to a max of one and a half spine thicknesses. Any more than that and you are scraping. Don't expect the average straight razor edge to remove everything in one pass the way a shavette does. Try a beard REDUCTION pass, WTG or as close to it as possible, and then a finish pass, WTG or XTG. Most guys do need multiple passes. IOW, you can compensate to a degree for the lower cutting power of the typical straight razor.

Or you can try to emulate the shavette edge. First, test your edge using one of the standard sharpness tests. Not out of doubt for the honer's abilities, but as a valuable reference.
(1) Is My Razor Sharp? The Treetopping Test | Badger & Blade
or
Hanging Hair Test - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

Now, if you want to up your game and shave like a boss, try a pasted balsa progression. No, not the old fashion green and red and black pastes, and not free standing unlapped balsa. Do it right or don't bother. If you do it right, it works. If you don't do it right, you won't notice much, or maybe any, improvement.
(1) How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade

This is the final and most significant part of The Method. If you nail it, and you very likely will on your first or second attempt if you follow directions precisely, you can approach or even equal a DE blade in sharpness. If you REALLY nail it, even exceed it. Read the balsa thread all the way to the end, or you will miss key developments.

The Shapton 30k should have left an edge that the balsa can build upon. Usually, even a 12k edge is sufficient for the balsa to work its magic upon. If however, the razor will not treetop at all even at only 1/8" above the skin, then you will have to repeat the finish stage of the honing, on a 12k finisher or 1u film. I can't imagine needing to go back further than that, but depending on what the sharpness tests tell you, it may need deeper honing.

Is your W&B a hollowground, or a wedge? There are a lot of wild cards in wedge honing and as a beginner I would not tackle it just yet. And if it is a hollowground razor, then it is possible that your honer used tape on the spine. Unfortunately this is very common. It takes a good bit of honing to correct the bevel angle to an untaped one. Otherwise you can hone with the same thickness and number of tape layers.

You are stropping away from you and then toward you. Naturally the razor will sound different on the away and return strokes. Dont let it get your bowels in an uproar. After receiving a shave ready razor, a straight razor newbie is encouraged to not strop for the first shave but to only strop on all subsequent shaves. When you do, go about 50 laps on the leather.

A second shave ready razor might be in order here. Go with a decent vintage in the under $50 range, is my suggestion. You just want something sharp to shave with and to compare with, that is not a shavette. If the lightbulb comes on and tells you that your W&B is dull, contact your honer. If no joy is to be found there, send it to someone else. At the finish stage, the potential damage you can do is slight. If you take it back to bevel, it is a good deal greater. Make your mistakes on something more expendable. Also smiling edges can be tricky, as your first honing attempts go. Learn to do a straight edge first, then smileys. Most beginners and in fact most honers period, tend to overdo the rolling X when honing a smiley.

If you just can't get no satisfaction, maybe reach out to Doc226 or someone else on the forum who comes highly recommended. Alfredo will not only hone your razor but also discuss what he did and how he did it.

 

[bluesman 7]

Been a while but I think general advice when you get a razor fresh from a honemiester and are new to this is to shave with it straight out the packet to eliminate damage introduced via stropping technique.

After receiving a shave ready razor, a straight razor newbie is encouraged to not strop for the first shave

I actually disagree with this advice. There is evidence that the oxidation of a razor edge, even over night, does effect sharpness. If you want to experience this dulling due to oxidation, shave a bit with a razor that has been stropped and rested for a few days. Then strop the razor and continue your shave.

Stropping is not that difficult. If the strop is held tight and the spine is kept on the strop, there is very little danger of damaging the edge.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I actually disagree with this advice. There is evidence that the oxidation of a razor edge, even over night, does effect sharpness. If you want to experience this dulling due to oxidation, shave a bit with a razor that has been stropped and rested for a few days. Then strop the razor and continue your shave.

Stropping is not that difficult. If the strop is held tight and the spine is kept on the strop, there is very little danger of damaging the edge.

You do make good points. However, after the first shave, the new straight shaver can certainly strop and shave for the second shave. Gonna have to strop for the second shave, anyway. On that first shave, not stropping is not going to ruin the razor or any other catastrophe.

I agree that stropping is best immediately preceding the shave. It is rather obvious, actually. I agree that stropping is not difficult. Some guys still manage to mess it up, though, without a mentor physically present to watch over their shoulder.

If the newbie DOES strop before his first shave with a shave ready straight razor, no, I guess it is not the end of the world. There isn't much, short of dropping the razor on edge, that will ruin it permanently. So there is a lot of YMMV in there, I suppose. Personally I will still lean toward the conventional wisdom that says a shave ready razor is ready to shave and a beginner having his first shave shouldn't strop before the first shave. Unless otherwise indicated.

 

[bluesman 7]

As someone who has honed razors for others, I want the first shave on the razor that I honed for them to be as good as possible. To that effect, I do recommend that the razor is stropped on clean leather directly before using it. Just my personal advice. What others recommend is up to them and fine with me.

 

[GeoWashRocks]

Is your W&B a hollowground, or a wedge?

The 1st one I wrote of is the WB I inherited. I think it is hollow ground 5/8" and it was sent out to be honed. I just bought the next 3 razors. A Genco Geneva 6/8" and it is hollow but less so, and advertised as "shave ready". Next is a 9/16" hollow ground Anton Wingen not advertised as "shave ready". The 4th is a Imperial 3/4" extra hollow ground "Improved", not advertised as shave ready, still en-route to me. My experience with the the WB and the "shave ready" Genco were almost identical. The Genco was perhaps a little better.

I do a very light pressure 4 pass reduction with clean up using the shavette. So I'm use to a really close shave and it doesn't irritate my skin. Not so in the beginning, but after 5 years I rarely get weepers, or nick myself. It's been years since I experienced razor burn, until today on my neck with the Genco. My shavette/ feather baseline is pretty high, and I'm not willing to do less. Consequently, I'll get the stuff and try the Balsa method. Thanks

 

[GeoWashRocks]

As someone who has honed razors for others, I want the first shave on the razor that I honed for them to be as good as possible. To that effect, I do recommend that the razor is stropped on clean leather directly before using it. Just my personal advice. What others recommend is up to them and fine with me.

I tried the WB after sending it out, and it pulled like crazy. Then I stropped it and it was substantially better, but not good.

 

[GeoWashRocks]

You are missing the shavette edge. Most straight razor edges lack the cutting power of a fresh DE or long disposable blade as used in a shavette. However, men have shaved with straight razors in some form or another since shaving began. Generally, you have to do a little more of the work with a straight. The shavette, you simply have to keep from cutting yourself and it just works. Try adding a bit of a slice to your stroke. Not much, and be sure the skin is nice and tight, because while it increases cutting power, it does so for both whiskers, and skin. If you have been dragging the spine of your shavette on your face, you will likely need to raise the spine off your face with a gap of one to a max of one and a half spine thicknesses. Any more than that and you are scraping. Don't expect the average straight razor edge to remove everything in one pass the way a shavette does. Try a beard REDUCTION pass, WTG or as close to it as possible, and then a finish pass, WTG or XTG. Most guys do need multiple passes. IOW, you can compensate to a degree for the lower cutting power of the typical straight razor.

Or you can try to emulate the shavette edge. First, test your edge using one of the standard sharpness tests. Not out of doubt for the honer's abilities, but as a valuable reference.
(1) Is My Razor Sharp? The Treetopping Test | Badger & Blade
or
Hanging Hair Test - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

Now, if you want to up your game and shave like a boss, try a pasted balsa progression. No, not the old fashion green and red and black pastes, and not free standing unlapped balsa. Do it right or don't bother. If you do it right, it works. If you don't do it right, you won't notice much, or maybe any, improvement.
(1) How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade

This is the final and most significant part of The Method. If you nail it, and you very likely will on your first or second attempt if you follow directions precisely, you can approach or even equal a DE blade in sharpness. If you REALLY nail it, even exceed it. Read the balsa thread all the way to the end, or you will miss key developments.

The Shapton 30k should have left an edge that the balsa can build upon. Usually, even a 12k edge is sufficient for the balsa to work its magic upon. If however, the razor will not treetop at all even at only 1/8" above the skin, then you will have to repeat the finish stage of the honing, on a 12k finisher or 1u film. I can't imagine needing to go back further than that, but depending on what the sharpness tests tell you, it may need deeper honing.

Is your W&B a hollowground, or a wedge? There are a lot of wild cards in wedge honing and as a beginner I would not tackle it just yet. And if it is a hollowground razor, then it is possible that your honer used tape on the spine. Unfortunately this is very common. It takes a good bit of honing to correct the bevel angle to an untaped one. Otherwise you can hone with the same thickness and number of tape layers.

You are stropping away from you and then toward you. Naturally the razor will sound different on the away and return strokes. Dont let it get your bowels in an uproar. After receiving a shave ready razor, a straight razor newbie is encouraged to not strop for the first shave but to only strop on all subsequent shaves. When you do, go about 50 laps on the leather.

A second shave ready razor might be in order here. Go with a decent vintage in the under $50 range, is my suggestion. You just want something sharp to shave with and to compare with, that is not a shavette. If the lightbulb comes on and tells you that your W&B is dull, contact your honer. If no joy is to be found there, send it to someone else. At the finish stage, the potential damage you can do is slight. If you take it back to bevel, it is a good deal greater. Make your mistakes on something more expendable. Also smiling edges can be tricky, as your first honing attempts go. Learn to do a straight edge first, then smileys. Most beginners and in fact most honers period, tend to overdo the rolling X when honing a smiley.

If you just can't get no satisfaction, maybe reach out to Doc226 or someone else on the forum who comes highly recommended. Alfredo will not only hone your razor but also discuss what he did and how he did it.

OK then, I read your balsa paper and I'll do that, Thanks. You mention diamond paste. Is there a reason I shouldn't use diamond spray? Seems easier with better distribution and less mess, no? I'm still buying the shapton 8 and 12k stones to progress from my king 1k/6k stone, and then to the balsa, right?

 

[Tanuki]

I do a very light pressure 4 pass reduction with clean up using the shavette. So I'm use to a really close shave and it doesn't irritate my skin.

My shavette/ feather baseline is pretty high, and I'm not willing to do less.

Respect. I use a Focus Slim shavette with 1/2 Feather DE. As well as a plethora of other razors. New, vintage, SR, DE, SE, injector...

You have set yourself a very high standard. When you get your SR shave to that level, you will be entitled to tell anyone on this forum how to shave correctly.

Were I embarking for your destination, I would start with a matched set of at least two new straight razors of decent quality. Maybe different scales so I could tell them apart. Not a mixed bag of vintage.

Then add whatever synthetic finish hone floats your boat (Naniwa S2 12k or a Shapton are pretty standard), a pasted balsa progression, and a good strop. Shave on!

You can go back and dive down the whole vintage razor collecting, restoring, bevel setting, edge tweaking, rock collecting rabbit hole later. I’m down there right now, and frankly, I don’t think I’m searching for the the best shave. I’m just amusing myself and reveling in a universe of conflicting techniques and opinions.

My personal conflicting opinion of the day: 3x12x2 makes a good balsa strop and doesn’t need to be glued to a substrate. I can get clear grain 3x36x2 balsa at my local hobby shop for about $15.

 

[Slash McCoy]

OK then, I read your balsa paper and I'll do that, Thanks. You mention diamond paste. Is there a reason I shouldn't use diamond spray? Seems easier with better distribution and less mess, no? I'm still buying the shapton 8 and 12k stones to progress from my king 1k/6k stone, and then to the balsa, right?

There is no mess. Think of a pinto bean, dry, fresh out of the bag. Think of 1/3 of that pinto bean. That is about the amount of paste you will use. Just randomly dot it around, then rub it in by hand. This works. Do you want to experiment, without a baseline, or do you want a sharp razor? Diamond spray will work. So will a brick, or a randomly selected rock from a pile of construction stone, or the bottom of a coffee mug. It is a matter of degree and of proven track record. And of proper dosing, in the case of the diamond. Either way, you are still going to wipe it down after rubbing it in. Diamond paste is part of The Method. Diamond spray is not. Experiment, or follow in the footsteps of others. It's your choice. I would recommend being a follower first, until you have created a few Method edges, and THEN experimenting if you want to try other stuff. Your razor, your face, your choice.

The main thing is right now, from the beginning, you need to get totally used to, and accepting of, the idea of precisely following a proven method that can give you the nearly unobtainable results that you seek, without requiring years and years of practice to achieve. You can't "what if I did THIS" your way to a better than professional edge until you have more experience. You can follow behind others, including newbies, who have used The Method to get there on the first or second try. I don't see where there is much wiggle room there, if you want to succeed instead of just start a challenging hobby.

You can chase the dragon forever. Or, you can catch that rascal right now.

 

[GeoWashRocks]

Easy choice, I have other things in life to get done, so I can't be reinventing the sharpening wheel. I.e., just got a new bullmastiff puppy last night, so I have to build a fence today around...everything. I'll follow, no problem. Thanks

 

[GeoWashRocks]

Were I embarking for your destination, I would start with a matched set of at least two new straight razors of decent quality. Maybe different scales so I could tell them apart. Not a mixed bag of vintage.

In the beginning I thought about getting a new pair of Dovo Bismarcks with the pearl/acrylic scales. Then most people recommended getting a few old/vintage relatively cheap SRs to learn honing. I have honed a few knives on a Gatco set, and I set the bevel on the WB using my king 1k/6k stone. Other than that, I have zero honing experience. Subjecting the cheap stuff to my novice skills seemed like a good I deal at the time, so here I am. The other thing is, I really love shaving, and doing it well is the goal. Some guys love honing, but for me honing is the road to the primary goal. It may end up that I want to spend my time shaving and not honing. If so, that will probably lead to a "Thin shavette" with bone scales, which is what I was looking at before the Bismarcks, which was before the vintage straight razors. No doubt, achieving a shavette/feather shave with a SR is going to be a challange. I enjoy multiple passes and don't care how many I have to do. So a very smooth, enjoyable shave with no tugging or skin abrasion would be an acceptable result for now.

 

[SliceOfLife]

What is your Strop? The way you describe the strop making noise on one side and not the other makes me think of a zeepk I had back in the day with a very plasticky linen component.

 

[GeoWashRocks]

What is your Strop? The way you describe the strop making noise on one side and not the other makes me think of a zeepk I had back in the day with a very plasticky linen component.

Another recommendation from the forum, Tony Miller, it's his plain vanilla strop, beautiful craftsmanship. It seems perfect to me, but what do I know, seriously.

 

[Tanuki]

Another recommendation from the forum, Tony Miller, it's his plain vanilla strop, beautiful craftsmanship. It seems perfect to me, but what do I know, seriously.

I think you did well on the strop.

I got a cosmetic second from Tony, 3” veg tanned horsehide. He was great to deal with, the strop is extremely well crafted, and I get good results from it. I like the 3”.

 

[Bevel]

I agree that stropping is best immediately preceding the shave. It is rather obvious, actually. I agree that stropping is not difficult. Some guys still manage to mess it up, though, without a mentor physically present to watch over their shoulder.

Go to 4:38 in this video and see if you can notice the flaw in this guys stropping technique.