Scope Adjustment Preferences, Mils vs. MOA

[nortac]

So what's your preference for scope adjustments, reticles and ranging? We're all familiar with 1/4 MOA windage and elevation adjustment on most basic hunting scopes. More complex reticles are available with either Mils or MOA markings for hold overs, leads etc. Some scopes will have a mil reticle but moa adjustments on the turrets. Mils are generally preferred for ranging unknown distances, but I like MOA for known distance target shooting. Anyone use both, different applications?

 

[nikonNUT]

Man that is a deep rabbit hole! The debate is as old as the internet. Shooting static I don't think it matters but when you start playing with weaponized math, what mile per hour a gun is (That one took a while to get my head around), and ranging targets based on size I think MIL rules but that is just MHO. They both have their place.

 

[nortac]

The debate .... but when you start playing with weaponized math, what mile per hour a gun is (That one took a while to get my head around), .... They both have their place.

Not looking for so much a debate but rather a discussion of why you prefer one or another and for what application. Just wanting to see if there is anything that I haven't already considered. I will be needing to pick out a scope when I complete my 6.5 Grendel upper build.

 

[Whisky]

All of my scopes are MOA but that’s just because I’m familiar with the system and I don’t do any serious long range shooting. When I get time and money to build up my 338 I will look hard at MILS simply because it seems there are more “long range” scope configurations in MILS than MOA. But if I can find a scope that suits my needs in MOA I’ll stick with it.

 

[Ad Astra]

MOA. Mils are fine for binoculars etc.

AA

 

[nikonNUT]

Not looking for so much a debate but rather a discussion of why you prefer one or another and for what application. Just wanting to see if there is anything that I haven't already considered. I will be needing to pick out a scope when I complete my 6.5 Grendel upper build.

Well then it comes down to this... Do you want .25" per click at 100 or .36" per click at 100? As @Whisky said the higher power scopes are usually MRAD but Nightforce and Schmidt & Bender have MOA versions (and they had better in the $4k to $5K realm!) The only place MRAD might shine is if you are jonesing for something like one of the Horus Vision TREMOR reticles. MRAD only...

 

[nortac]

I used a Sightron 6-32x50 on my .308 bolt gun for 600 yd FTR. It has an MOA reticle, but oddly 20x was where the MOA measurements are calibrated to. So I usually kept it on 20x, but I would turn it up to 32x to read mirage. On that target, the X-ring measured 1/2 MOA (3 in. @ 600yds.) and the 10 ring 1 MOA (6 in.@ 600). Subsequently, MOA hash marks on the reticle were very handy for windage hold offs.

 

[OkieStubble]

So what's your preference for scope adjustments, reticles and ranging? We're all familiar with 1/4 MOA windage and elevation adjustment on most basic hunting scopes. More complex reticles are available with either Mils or MOA markings for hold overs, leads etc. Some scopes will have a mil reticle but moa adjustments on the turrets. Mils are generally preferred for ranging unknown distances, but I like MOA for known distance target shooting. Anyone use both, different applications?

MOA for 4 legs, MIL for two?

 

[OkieStubble]

Man that is a deep rabbit hole! The debate is as old as the internet. Shooting static I don't think it matters but when you start playing with weaponized math, what mile per hour a gun is (That one took a while to get my head around), and ranging targets based on size I think MIL rules but that is just MHO. They both have their place.

I'm no experienced long distance shooter, so either or, if you stay at 300 or under. I'm more of a 'set it and forget it' kinda guy. But, isn't it common knowledge and acceptance that 1/4 MOA is somewhat more precise then 1/10 MIL?

 

[OkieStubble]

All of my scopes are MOA but that’s just because I’m familiar with the system and I don’t do any serious long range shooting. When I get time and money to build up my 338 I will look hard at MILS simply because it seems there are more “long range” scope configurations in MILS than MOA. But if I can find a scope that suits my needs in MOA I’ll stick with it.

I know you can get mil scopes to 1/8 mil for even finer measurements, but I have read stuff online that says many long distance shooter's think even 1/4 mil is too fine and they prefer scopes with even 1/2 mil?

 

[nikonNUT]

Not if you look at it from a pure mathematical stand point, Rob. 1/4 MOA at 100 yards is 0.26175" (based on a true MOA of 1.047") while .1MRAD at 100 yards is .36". Numbers pure and simple. The issue comes when trying to zero a rifle. If you insist on having an impact dial exactly in the center of a target MOA is a better with finer adjustments but! In the case of most long rangers we want to be as close to the bottom of the erector (without hitting it) as possible so that we can get as much elevation out of the scope as possible. For that reason we just true our zero. If a rifle shoots a decent group that is, say, 1 " high", there are calculators (Hornady 4DOF is great!) that let you punch in bullet info, velocities, and atmospherics and it will spit out a range card. You tweak the distance until you see 1" high at 100 and see where the chart says your zero is. Enter that zero into the ballistics calculator and it will adjust your range card accordingly. Still want to get as close as possible to dead center but it eliminates the chasing a click here or there while offering as much dial as possible. 3 clicks of MRAD at 100 yards is an extra 20" of adjustment at 2000. Honestly I think it depends on now sniper-y we want to be! Pretty sure Carlos Hathcock (Good Arkansas boy) didn't have a MRAD scope and he gave the enemy hell just fine!
P.S. .1/2 Mil is a LOT! 1 MRAD is 36" at 100 yards. Most any scope with MRAD with be .1 and S&B offers scopes with .05MIL.

 

[Earcutter]

Man... I’ll say MOA. But after sighting in, I don’t think I’ve tried to kill anything past any of my rifles MPBR.

Rifle Trajectory Table

 

[OkieStubble]

Man... I’ll say MOA. But after sighting in, I don’t think I’ve tried to kill anything past any of my rifles MPBR.

Rifle Trajectory Table

That's why I like mid range tactical scopes. Designated points for hold over and range finding and maybe a couple of permanent dots for moving targets of 5 and 10 mph. Anything else makes my head hurt.

 

[HARMON]

I use both. In general, I use MOA on "scoring" targets and short to mid range hunting. Benchrest, F-Class, High Power etc.. use targets that are MOA based. I have come to prefer MILS when shooting long range steel plates and long range hunting, both over 500 yards.

 

[NewYorkBuck]

MOA. Only because I started w MOA, so I stayed w MOA.

The "close to 1 inch at a 100 yards" is a nice rule of thumb too ...

 

[Earcutter]

That's why I like mid range tactical scopes. Designated points for hold over and range finding and maybe a couple of permanent dots for moving targets of 5 and 10 mph. Anything else makes my head hurt.

I had one of those on my AR. It’s pretty freaking cool. The lines represented average shoulder width, figure that out and then line it up. It was great, and pretty fast. But not anywhere near as fast as my red dot. And in spite of the fact that with my red dot after 250, +/- 3”, I need to be guessing a bit, but it’s way accurate enough. Especially because I practice shooting it standing up vs. on a bench And 3” is the slightest of flinches when on two feet.

I’m not a sniper. My AR is for defense only. Being that’s the case, and the fact that I 99% of the time I can’t see taking a shot anywhere farther than 300. At least not where I live now, and definitely not taken in a hurry which most defensIve shooting is - or so I’ve been told lol. I aim at 8” and 4” plates on my lot. If they ding, I’m golden.

Now when it comes to hunting, snap shooting is snap shooting, and the same rules apply. So I best not aim past the MPBR. Besides, a 200 yard shot on your feet is a long shot! Leaning on a tree, 300.

I would care a whole lot more if I shot distance for sport. But I don’t right now. My friends love shooting out past those distances but it’s odd, most of my friends don’t do it on anything but a bench. And they don’t hunt either. But they want rifles to reach out to 600 and 1,000 yards shooting off a rest. It’s cool. I don’t say much, but I practice walking and shooting my long guns out as far as I figure I’ll need round here. Though I admit walking a round or ten out to give a ground hog it’s best day is fun.

If I was back in the geographic center of America, where you can see your dog run off for days, I’d feel different.

 

[KW Driver]

unless it's an experience holdover, or a range (KD) measurement, why are y'all running mils with yards instead of meters? isn't the math easier (while being different) when it's MOA & yards, mils & meters?

 

[nikonNUT]

Shoot what you like, like what you shoot! I'll be honest, my LR guns are MIL. My AR's and pistols are MOA. Why? Couldn't tell you other that I got a smoking deal on my 5-25x50 Viper with a discontinued MIL reticle. The one advantage I could see to one or the other is if I was shooting competitions like PRS or that ilk. If I squad up and other members are shooting MOA while I am shooting MIL sharing dopes gets harder. I went MRAD on my first ELR rifle and stuck with it. ARs and other little guns? The red dots seem to be predominantly MOA so there we are. Does it matter? Not in my mind. I shoot poorly in English or metric!

 

[OkieStubble]

I had one of those on my AR. It’s pretty freaking cool. The lines represented average shoulder width, figure that out and then line it up. It was great, and pretty fast. But not anywhere near as fast as my red dot. And in spite of the fact that with my red dot after 250, +/- 3”, I need to be guessing a bit, but it’s way accurate enough. Especially because I practice shooting it standing up vs. on a bench And 3” is the slightest of flinches when on two feet.

I’m not a sniper. My AR is for defense only. Being that’s the case, and the fact that I 99% of the time I can’t see taking a shot anywhere farther than 300. At least not where I live now, and definitely not taken in a hurry which most defensIve shooting is - or so I’ve been told lol. I aim at 8” and 4” plates on my lot. If they ding, I’m golden.

Now when it comes to hunting, snap shooting is snap shooting, and the same rules apply. So I best not aim past the MPBR. Besides, a 200 yard shot on your feet is a long shot! Leaning on a tree, 300.

I would care a whole lot more if I shot distance for sport. But I don’t right now. My friends love shooting out past those distances but it’s odd, most of my friends don’t do it on anything but a bench. And they don’t hunt either. But they want rifles to reach out to 600 and 1,000 yards shooting off a rest. It’s cool. I don’t say much, but I practice walking and shooting my long guns out as far as I figure I’ll need round here. Though I admit walking a round or ten out to give a ground hog it’s best day is fun.

If I was back in the geographic center of America, where you can see your dog run off for days, I’d feel different.

Good post.

 

[OkieStubble]

unless it's an experience holdover, or a range (KD) measurement, why are y'all running mils with yards instead of meters? isn't the math easier (while being different) when it's MOA & yards, mils & meters?

I think there are specific perimeters that probably help with the either or decision. Is it long distance or mid range, do you need to make an exacting, precise shot, or is a hit is a hit Is a hit?

For me right now, I am actually looking for a scope to top off my newest AR. I am looking at mid range, 300 or less. I want to keep it simple with set it and forget it turrets. I’m not looking to use any mathematical skill, to figure out, holdover, drop, windage humidity, temperature, dew point or rotation of the earth, so it will probably be MoA.

If anyone has a suggestion for a 1x6 or 1x8, with an illuminated reticle that is not too simple and not too busy but still has designated holdovers with etched glass but it still has to be lightweight? Like well under 24 ounces including the mount? I’m all ears.

Anybody that can suggest a good one and keep me under $700 I would be forever grateful.

Edit: First or second focal is fine.