Scared to death; huge life decision to make

[Trench]

I'm sure there are some fellow B&Bers around here who have been in a similar situation, so I'd love to hear if any of you have any wisdom you could share.

I am grossly underpaid for my degree (computer science) at my current job, partly because they are known to be an employer that pays less, and being this is my first job out of college I had no experience at salary negotiating and excitedly accepted a salary that barely paid me more than I was making at McDonald's. Because of this I live paycheck to paycheck despite the fact that I live very meagerly. I even have to work a second job on the weekends just to scrape by.

Last year I was trying like mad to find a new, better paying job. All of the opportunities were in a larger city two hours away and my fiance and I were planning to move there. Unfortunately my job hunt went absolutely nowhere and my fiance and I decided to just try and stick it out here. We decided to take advantage of the first time home buyer's tax credit and bought a house, the mortgage payment for which was actually much cheaper than what we were paying for rent.

We tried to find me a better job in the area where we live but had no luck, and eventually we started looking farther and farther away again.

This week I received job offers from two companies in that large city two hours away. One is offering a salary that is about $10,000 a year less than what we figured we would need to be able to move to that area, has no benefits, but is a very small company that has the potential for me to grow my career as the business grows. Of course, being very small and less than two years old, I'm a little afraid of how stable this company may be; but I guess that is the risk that goes along with the reward of potential growth. I sent a counter offer asking for that extra $10,000 we would need to move down there.

The other company offered a salary that is exactly what we would need to move down there, and offers full benefits. However at this company I don't see the potential for career growth that I saw with the other company, and also I would be brought in to replace two people that they had let go. So the fear of being downsized is a con for this job.

Then there is the issue with the house and moving. We would have to pay back the $8000 tax credit which would be hard for us to do, and would also have to worry about selling or renting it out, along with all the headaches that go along with that. We are worried about making such a big move with so many responsibilities where we're at right now. We don't want to have to move my fiances son out of his school as he is doing well there and has a lot of friends. I'm also leading his Cub Scout den and would feel like a huge jerk leaving them hanging in the middle of the year with no leader (I really doubt any of the other parents are willing to step up). In short, we had really planned on settling where we're at.

I don't think I have ever been so scared in my life. I don't want to make the wrong decision and make our lives harder than they already are. I absolutely have to do something because we just won't be able to make it as a family on what my current job is paying me. But we don't really want to have to move either as we've already put down our roots in this area. Moving may end up being just as hard on us as we struggle with trying to unload our house.

This would have been so much easier if the job hunt would have worked out last year while we were still renters. It is crazy to me that I could get nowhere last year, but now that I've bought a house I'm in such demand that I've gotten two job offers on the same day. I even have a third interview with another company in that city two hours away tomorrow!

 

[Amer]

Have you talked to your current employer about a raise? It's a risk, but you could tell them about the other offers you have and see if they might match it to keep you. That's for you to judge how much your current company wants you. I currently work as a software developer and I know of at least one person I work with hired after me who wound up getting a bit more salary and tuition reimbursement (before the company started doing it for everyone) just because he threatened to leave the job for something else.
Honestly if I was a respectable manager at a respectable company and I found out that one of my employees had to work a second job on the side just to make ends meet I'd be ashamed.

You could also explain your current situation to your potential future employers to see if they have some sort of program to help you move. Since you took the homeowner's credit it might be better to stay put the 5 years or whatever it is so that you don't have to pay it off. Unfortunately I got the $7500 credit that has to be paid off no matter what, but that's me and not you.

It sounds like you have a pretty happy life where you are besides your job. You need the extra cash to help grow your family, but is the move to get it going to tear your life apart? It may not be worth it. You might just want to keep looking in your area if you can or start looking for other sources of income. Perhaps the many webpages where you could take programming jobs on the side for commission.

 

[LinuxMintyFresh]

I don't really have time to give you a good answer right now, but one thing is for sure: there are a lot worse situations you could be in than having a house, a wife, a job and two two new offers. Take a deep breath. Everything is going to be cool.

 

[raisindot]

business grows. Of course, being very small and less than two years old, I'm a little afraid of how stable this company may be; but I guess that is the risk that goes along with the reward of potential growth.

Well, as a two-year old, you don't have much leverage in the job market. Wait until you're potty trained at least before you negotiate.



Sorry, coudn't resist. But on to the more serious question at hand.

You're just starting out, so you will be underpaid in the first years of your career while you're gaining experience and skills that can take you on to the next level. It might take 5-10 years or more to make a decent living, depending on how much you learn and how valuable your skills are to future employers.

As to your current choices:

Small company: Taking less money for a small company isn't a great idea. 90% of small companies go out of business and in the current economic environment, where sales are slight and credit is tight, the odds are even higher against them. In fact, they should be paying you more money for the risk you'd be taking going there. And don't the old bogey of "stock options" suck you in. Very few small companies actually get to the IPO stage and chances are the company is five or more years away from being anywhere near that stage.

Larger company: If you're getting benefits that you don't currently have, the value of those benefits may be more than the actual salary increase you wanted. While you might have to suck up for the level salary, don't worry about career growth. You will NEVER advance far in your career or get significant salary increases by staying with one company for a long time. Career advances and bigger bucks come to people who change employers. The "one-company man" era is over. In fact, working for a company for 20 years is seen as a minus today, because after a time you don't gain new skills.

The moving question is a huge one. One thing you might consider, although it's not a great option, is either commuting to the new job or staying in the other town during the week and coming home on weekends. Maybe even a 3-days there and two-days home arrangement is possible, depending on the job. The problem with moving is everything you mentioned. You could be stuck with a house you can't sell or rent, be paying double mortgages, be living in a more expensive city and then ultimately be laid off, leaving you high and dry on all counts. If you're seriously thinking of relocating, I'd recommend negotiating a severance contract ahead of time, or at least committing the company to give you a two-year contract rather than the usual at-will situation where they can lay you off whenever they want.

Unfortunately, the current job market is such that employees don't have much negotiation room. Not when there are a thousand other new graduates willing to take the job you're going for with no preconditions.

Jeff in Boston

 

[Mink]

Keep some things in mind. You will always want more money - always. It really sucks out there right now and if you change jobs it will be risky. As things improve - and they do - it will be less risky, but will always difficult if you move as well. Computer Science is a broad field. If you're a developer you will need to move to areas that have the jobs - and it changes. If you're a sysadmin, it's less geographically sensitive, but you will be the new guy if things go downhill or to India. If you're interested in management or getting your masters, see if your current employer can provide that path and will pick up college expenses. As much as they may be hated, the big corporations usually offer the best salaries and benefits, so go talk to them at job fairs or through your college and you'll get a good idea of what they're looking for and for the specific skills that are in demand.

 

[Trench]

Have you talked to your current employer about a raise? It's a risk, but you could tell them about the other offers you have and see if they might match it to keep you. That's for you to judge how much your current company wants you. I currently work as a software developer and I know of at least one person I work with hired after me who wound up getting a bit more salary and tuition reimbursement (before the company started doing it for everyone) just because he threatened to leave the job for something else.
Honestly if I was a respectable manager at a respectable company and I found out that one of my employees had to work a second job on the side just to make ends meet I'd be ashamed.

You could also explain your current situation to your potential future employers to see if they have some sort of program to help you move. Since you took the homeowner's credit it might be better to stay put the 5 years or whatever it is so that you don't have to pay it off. Unfortunately I got the $7500 credit that has to be paid off no matter what, but that's me and not you.

It sounds like you have a pretty happy life where you are besides your job. You need the extra cash to help grow your family, but is the move to get it going to tear your life apart? It may not be worth it. You might just want to keep looking in your area if you can or start looking for other sources of income. Perhaps the many webpages where you could take programming jobs on the side for commission.

My immediate supervisor knows my situation and has been trying to advance my career and get me more involved here for years. Unfortunately the people who actually make those decisions are too busy with other business to listen to him. He knows I've been looking for opportunities with other companies, has been supportive of me in that aspect, and knows I now have two offers on the table. I'd have to actually accept one of them and turn in my resignation for the people who make the decisions to take notice though.

A former co-worker of mine left the company a couple of years ago, and when he did they did try to offer him more money so he would stay. So there is a possibility they would do that for me and if they offered enough I really think that would be the be route to go for me. However what they offered my co-worker to stay was not even close to what his new job had offered him so he left anyway.

I wish I could take one of the new jobs and stay put for the three years I'd have to stay to not repay the tax credit, but the two hour commute would kill me. Especially during the Michigan winters.

I don't really have time to give you a good answer right now, but one thing is for sure: there are a lot worse situations you could be in than having a house, a wife, a job and two two new offers. Take a deep breath. Everything is going to be cool.

Yeah, definitely not a bad problem to have. I just don't want to make the wrong decision.

What frustrates me the most is that I was almost out of this situation over the summer. I was brought in for interviews at a company that is even closer to my home than where I work now. It would have been a job with a large company with lots of opportunity for a career growth and a salary nearly double what I'm currently making.

They actually interviewed me for two different positions. They started off by taking me on a tour that over ran it's allotted time and the person who interviewed me for the first position had his interview time cut short as a result. The second interview ended with a job offer for that position. But before the paperwork could be done the manager in charge of the other position decided he wanted to talk to me again because he felt I would be a better fit for his team and liked what he heard from me in our shortened interview. Of course, he needed to conduct a full length interview to be sure. Another interview was set up with him a week later. After that interview he decided I didn't have enough experience for his position after all. Worst of all, in the week's time between the interviews, the second manager decided to go with somebody else for the position they had initially offered to me because they felt for sure I was going to be brought in at the other position.

Basically, I lost out on a great job close to home because a tour went over schedule.

 

[Trench]

Well, as a two-year old, you don't have much leverage in the job market. Wait until you're potty trained at least before you negotiate.



Sorry, coudn't resist. But on to the more serious question at hand.

You're just starting out, so you will be underpaid in the first years of your career while you're gaining experience and skills that can take you on to the next level. It might take 5-10 years or more to make a decent living, depending on how much you learn and how valuable your skills are to future employers.

As to your current choices:

Small company: Taking less money for a small company isn't a great idea. 90% of small companies go out of business and in the current economic environment, where sales are slight and credit is tight, the odds are even higher against them. In fact, they should be paying you more money for the risk you'd be taking going there. And don't the old bogey of "stock options" suck you in. Very few small companies actually get to the IPO stage and chances are the company is five or more years away from being anywhere near that stage.

Larger company: If you're getting benefits that you don't currently have, the value of those benefits may be more than the actual salary increase you wanted. While you might have to suck up for the level salary, don't worry about career growth. You will NEVER advance far in your career or get significant salary increases by staying with one company for a long time. Career advances and bigger bucks come to people who change employers. The "one-company man" era is over. In fact, working for a company for 20 years is seen as a minus today, because after a time you don't gain new skills.

The moving question is a huge one. One thing you might consider, although it's not a great option, is either commuting to the new job or staying in the other town during the week and coming home on weekends. Maybe even a 3-days there and two-days home arrangement is possible, depending on the job. The problem with moving is everything you mentioned. You could be stuck with a house you can't sell or rent, be paying double mortgages, be living in a more expensive city and then ultimately be laid off, leaving you high and dry on all counts. If you're seriously thinking of relocating, I'd recommend negotiating a severance contract ahead of time, or at least committing the company to give you a two-year contract rather than the usual at-will situation where they can lay you off whenever they want.

Unfortunately, the current job market is such that employees don't have much negotiation room. Not when there are a thousand other new graduates willing to take the job you're going for with no preconditions.

Jeff in Boston

I am five years into my career and have never received anything less than rave performance reviews and have won recognition awards from my company. Unfortunately, five years in I am still making just barely over half of what the average computer science college grad makes right out of school.

What you say about the smaller company is exactly what I worry about with them. The other company is offering full benefits comparable to what I get here; although I had to opt out of my insurance plan and 401k because I could no longer afford to contribute to them on what I'm paid here. So the second job with benefits seems like the clear choice.

What's really bothering me is the moving. The job with the smaller company seems like it would lend itself well to telecommuting. If they reject my request for a higher base salary, I was thinking if asking if I could take the amount they initially offered and work from home.

In any case, we've decided that we won't be moving until the end of the school year so we don't have to pull my future step son out of school. In the meantime, I'd have to do the two hour commute daily or stay down there during the week and come back on the weekends. Both aren't very attractive options.

 

[knlgskr]

Well, as a two-year old, you don't have much leverage in the job market. Wait until you're potty trained at least before you negotiate.



Sorry, coudn't resist. But on to the more serious question at hand.

You're just starting out, so you will be underpaid in the first years of your career while you're gaining experience and skills that can take you on to the next level. It might take 5-10 years or more to make a decent living, depending on how much you learn and how valuable your skills are to future employers.

As to your current choices:

Small company: Taking less money for a small company isn't a great idea. 90% of small companies go out of business and in the current economic environment, where sales are slight and credit is tight, the odds are even higher against them. In fact, they should be paying you more money for the risk you'd be taking going there. And don't the old bogey of "stock options" suck you in. Very few small companies actually get to the IPO stage and chances are the company is five or more years away from being anywhere near that stage.

Larger company: If you're getting benefits that you don't currently have, the value of those benefits may be more than the actual salary increase you wanted. While you might have to suck up for the level salary, don't worry about career growth. You will NEVER advance far in your career or get significant salary increases by staying with one company for a long time. Career advances and bigger bucks come to people who change employers. The "one-company man" era is over. In fact, working for a company for 20 years is seen as a minus today, because after a time you don't gain new skills.

The moving question is a huge one. One thing you might consider, although it's not a great option, is either commuting to the new job or staying in the other town during the week and coming home on weekends. Maybe even a 3-days there and two-days home arrangement is possible, depending on the job. The problem with moving is everything you mentioned. You could be stuck with a house you can't sell or rent, be paying double mortgages, be living in a more expensive city and then ultimately be laid off, leaving you high and dry on all counts. If you're seriously thinking of relocating, I'd recommend negotiating a severance contract ahead of time, or at least committing the company to give you a two-year contract rather than the usual at-will situation where they can lay you off whenever they want.

Unfortunately, the current job market is such that employees don't have much negotiation room. Not when there are a thousand other new graduates willing to take the job you're going for with no preconditions.

Jeff in Boston

Raisindot aka Jeff in Boston has some excellent advice/information.

Take that third interview and the consider telling/showing your employer the offers received. If you elect to stay with your current employer; you might mention that you have no intention of leaving sort of "When I take your money I ride for your brand".

True, you may not have much experience but it would/will take a newly hired the same amount of time to get what you have with your company.

Don't be shy about telling them you are glad to be their employee because recovery could take a long time and you will be gaining experience and expertise while waiting for better opportunities and right now job security and being employed are paramount in the economy/workplace.

I went through the same situation when I finished military service in 1970 and only the Fed seemed to be hiring. You might consider the Fed, there are worse employers.

 

[Brush_with_Fame]

take the new job that pays more.
then start sending out resumes again after 3 months.

 

[Go West Young Man]

At this point in this economy, there aren't many perfect deals out there and you're going to have to make some tradeoffs. It sounds like in order to get the job offering salary and stability you're going to have to take a financial hit on the house. Ask yourself whether in 5 or 10 years you'll be better off having eaten $8k in taxes and whatever you lose on renting it out versus the increased salary and quality of live you'll have enjoyed in the meanwhile.

We did a crosscountry move last year, ended up taking a major bath selling our condo during the darkest days of the recession. Financially, it'll take a while to recover, but in terms of career advancement and long-term mental health we know we made the right decision.

 

[Troggie]

When I worked in Detroit there was a gentleman that drove from the Kzoo/Battle Creek area every day to work and back just to provide for his family. I-94 during the winter heading east is not that bad.. heading back west is a different story.

Good luck with what ever decision you make.

 

[raisindot]

A former co-worker of mine left the company a couple of years ago, and when he did they did try to offer him more money so he would stay. So there is a possibility they would do that for me and if they offered enough I really think that would be the be route to go for me. However what they offered my co-worker to stay was not even close to what his new job had offered him so he left anyway.

Be verrrry careful playing the counteroffer bluff. Most professionals advise that once higher ups know you've been considering other employers you're instantly marked on the downsize list if you're not a C class executive they desperately need to overpay.

Accepting a counteroffer and staying with the company is not a good long-term strategy. For the short-term benefit of more money you'll be marked as someone who is disloyal to the company and will probably leave when he has a much better offer. This again will put you on the downsize target list and will very likely keep you from advancing in the company.

If you must accept the counteroffer, do it with a plan to find a new job elsewhere in the next six months or so. And be prepaed to have your phone calls, email and on-the-job behavior closely monitored by management. If they weren't aware of you before, accepting a counteroffer will make them aware of you now. Unless you're indispensable, this is not the best position to be in today.

Jeff in Boston

 

[DamnFineBob]

I am grossly underpaid for my degree (computer science) at my current job, partly because they are known to be an employer that pays less, and being this is my first job out of college....

You need to talk to others in your field, and see what a realistic salary is. Colleges ALWAYS promise that their degrees will result in higher paychecks than they actually do. They are in the business of selling degrees, and will skew statistics in their favor (or make them up) to keep their sales figures up.

Last year I was trying like mad to find a new, better paying job. All of the opportunities were in a larger city two hours away and my fiance and I were planning to move there.

Salaries in the larger cities are almost always higher, but so is the cost of living. Be sure to take housing, food, and expenses into account before you jump in.

One is offering a salary that is about $10,000 a year less than what we figured we would need to be able to move to that area, has no benefits, but is a very small company that has the potential for me to grow my career as the business grows. Of course, being very small and less than two years old, I'm a little afraid of how stable this company may be; but I guess that is the risk that goes along with the reward of potential growth. I sent a counter offer asking for that extra $10,000 we would need to move down there.

I'd wait until they agree to meet your salary demands, so long as your covered under your SO's insurance and benefits. Taking a sacrifice of $10,000 is a bit much for them to ask of anyone, and it could be a sign of their overall HR philosophy - Get them cheap out of college, and replace them regularly. Saying that you'd like to grow your career with their business is a great thing to tell THEM in the interview, but I wouldn't bank on it if I were you. It is rare for anyone to keep one job for a lifetime, especially those with advanced degrees! There's no gaurantee this business will grow to be a big one, rather than just fade away or be bought out. Look out for your own interests first, both the immediate and long term.

The other company offered a salary that is exactly what we would need to move down there, and offers full benefits. However at this company I don't see the potential for career growth that I saw with the other company, and also I would be brought in to replace two people that they had let go. So the fear of being downsized is a con for this job.

This job pays you what you need NOW... Of course, you could take the other job and HOPE that you'll eventually be advanced to a higher position, all the while losing $10k a year and wondering how you'll pay medical bills if you get sick without health benefits.

I don't think I have ever been so scared in my life. I don't want to make the wrong decision and make our lives harder than they already are. I absolutely have to do something because we just won't be able to make it as a family on what my current job is paying me.

If your motivations are based on immediate financial need, then why are you even considering a ob that pays $10,000 less than you need?

But we don't really want to have to move either as we've already put down our roots in this area.

Only you can decide if a city job is worth uprooting your family for. If you really cannot afford to live on your current salary, would you consider taking a job outside of your degree field to stay?

I've gotten two job offers on the same day. I even have a third interview with another company in that city two hours away tomorrow!

Is commuting a possibility for the first few months of this job? You can make sure its going to work out before moving the family, as well as letting the kids finish out the school year.


Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

 

[Trench]

Be verrrry careful playing the counteroffer bluff. Most professionals advise that once higher ups know you've been considering other employers you're instantly marked on the downsize list if you're not a C class executive they desperately need to overpay.

Accepting a counteroffer and staying with the company is not a good long-term strategy. For the short-term benefit of more money you'll be marked as someone who is disloyal to the company and will probably leave when he has a much better offer. This again will put you on the downsize target list and will very likely keep you from advancing in the company.

If you must accept the counteroffer, do it with a plan to find a new job elsewhere in the next six months or so. And be prepaed to have your phone calls, email and on-the-job behavior closely monitored by management. If they weren't aware of you before, accepting a counteroffer will make them aware of you now. Unless you're indispensable, this is not the best position to be in today.

Jeff in Boston

Ha! As if this comedy couldn't get any stranger, my company literally just posted a position that would be in effect a promotion for me and could well come along with the salary I need to become financially stable here.

If they had posted this position just a couple weeks earlier, it probably would have been a great opportunity for me. Now I'm sure they'll dangle it in front of my face when I turn in my resignation, but considering I agree with your advice to be wary of the counter offer I know it'd probably be a bad idea to accept.

Man, timing is just killing me!

 

[lamontqsanford]

What about the possibility of finding a cheap apartment in the new city and coming home on the weekends. My father in law did this for a couple of years and it worked out quite well for him. Obviously he didn't have any younger children at the time so it was easier to do. A lot of times you can find someone who wants to rent out a room, etc. for a good price.

 

[BCatl]

When you say "no benefits" I suppose that means no health insurance also?

I would not take a job with no benefits for a pig in the poke in return. Maybe there will be a potential of growth with a small company, or maybe it will be a dead end.

I agree you have a tough decision. One option of course is to stay put for now.

 

[Leche]

Trench, I have no experience in your field but I think there are some good questions you should ask yourself.

1. When money is the sole decision maker it usually results in a poor decision. That's the biggest thing I get from your post is money is the biggest factor.

2. Have you considered everything about moving to a city? Things tend to be more expensive but you don't typically drive as much. Cities are noisier but things are more accessible. City living can be really rough if it isn't the lifestyle you are looking for.

3. Have you discussed this in depth with your fiance and what is her take? There is a reason we refer to them as our better half.

Good luck.

 

[Will P.C.]

I would not take the job if they weren't putting health insurance on the table either. That is a low blow and really doesn't say much about that company.