Sanding Screens for flattening stones?

[Eastcoast30]

I'm just getting started with honing and would appreciate somehelp. I plan on using Naniwa super stones to start. My first step is to flatten the stones when I receive them. I was going to flatten them on polished tile and wet/dry paper. A woodworker friend advised that I use sanding screens. They are intended for drywall and last longer because they can be washed and re-used. And the open mesh reduces loading. Has anyone tried this? Also, I would like to know what grit to use on the Naniwas. Is it a progression, or do I just need one grit? I will be flattening a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I'm just getting started with honing and would appreciate somehelp. I plan on using Naniwa super stones to start. My first step is to flatten the stones when I receive them. I was going to flatten them on polished tile and wet/dry paper. A woodworker friend advised that I use sanding screens. They are intended for drywall and last longer because they can be washed and re-used. And the open mesh reduces loading. Has anyone tried this? Also, I would like to know what grit to use on the Naniwas. Is it a progression, or do I just need one grit? I will be flattening a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k.

It might work great. It might not. Sandpaper has a proven track record. You are just getting started. My advice in general is for beginners to stick with a method that is already popular until you have a pretty good handle on it, and leave experimentation and innovation for later. Your woodworker friend uses sanding screens with great success on drywall. If you were sanding drywall, his advice would be much more relevant, but you are lapping stones. How will you know that it is working for you? Working better than sandpaper, that is, until you have gained proficiency in lapping on sandpaper? Honing is all about optimizing a hundred little details, keeping everything as perfect as possible, so that the end result is a marvelously sharp and smooth shaving edge. The more things you leave to chance and the more things on which you compromise or freestyle, the more removed from the ideal your results will be. Doesn't mean you absolutely won't be able to shave with your edges. It does mean that the chances are likely that you COULD have done better. My philosophy is that the only results worth pursuing are the best possible results. Some other guys are in the "that ought to be good enough" school of thought. Where do you want to fit in?

Yes, sandpaper will load up. A toothbrush or better yet a soft bronze bristle brush of the same general shape such as what is used for cleaning machinery parts will help you to clear your sandpaper.

I am not familiar with sanding screens. I am familiar with sandpaper. Are your sanding screens as big or bigger than a whole sheet of sandpaper? This is not a trivial issue. The second most important advantage of sandpaper over flattening stones is you have more real estate, and so do not have to overrun so much.

In general, your quickest way to success is to follow the path already well traveled. Freestyling it will distract you and keep you from that path, and you will not know exactly where you are going wrong, or how to fix it. This goes for all aspects of honing. Honing technology thankfully is not a static thing. There have been a lot of incremental improvements in method and material over the centuries, and they all came about because someone tried something different. When you are first starting, even if you follow a cookbook method, EVERYTHING you try is new, to you. Try to be happy with going along with an established method for a while, until there is nothing new about it to you, and you can rely on your work to be always of a high level of excellence, and THEN experiment, using your base knowledge as a reference point.

 

[iamryan25]

The sanding screens look interesting to me, though at first glance they appear to be a bit coarser. They would probably work for "heavy lifting" but the stones might need to be conditioned further before use.

I find lapping with a diamond plate to be more convenient than tile and sandpaper.

I started out lapping with tile and sandpaper. If I could travel back in time and talk myself into getting a diamond plate as soon as I realized I was going to stick with honing, I would have told myself to get an Atoma 400 or DMT D8C 325.

The convenience of a diamond plate is worth the investment.

Sic powder and a surface lapping plate would be the other alternative I'd consider, though not as convenient as a diamond plate.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Good info, thanks. And finally, I will start with sandpaper and would like to know what grit to use on the Naniwas. Is it a progression, or do I just need one grit? I will be flattening a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k.

 

[bluesman 7]

Good info, thanks. And finally, I will start with sandpaper and would like to know what grit to use on the Naniwas. Is it a progression, or do I just need one grit? I will be flattening a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k.

320 works fine. The stones are soft enough that going finer is somewhat pointless. You're not going to be removing much material from new stones.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Not so very critical. As Bluesman stated, 320 will work fine. The coarser the sandpaper, the rougher the stone's surface. Flatness will be pretty much the same, whichever you use. A rough surface on a not so hard stone is quickly smoothed with use. I usually go two stages, something in the 200's or 300's grit until the drawn grid is mostly gone, then finish on something around 600. This may well be an unneccessary refinement but it's what I do. Regardless, I always hone a little bit on a SS chef knife to smooth down the surface before I put a razor to it. About 30 laps is probably plenty. More than that and you are probably just dishing the stone laterally due to the curvature and hardness of the knife. You could also lap your entire progression, and then smooth the stones on each other. Just rub them together under running water about a dozen laps or until the stiction is extreme.

 

[McBlade]

I think I'm in the same boat as you. My first plan:
* wet & dry sandpaper 500 & 1000 grit
* lapping film 30-12-9-5-3-1u
* balsa wood strop with CrOx
* balsa wood strop with FeOx

This is quite a cheap setup (diamond pastes are a more modern alternative to CrOx and FeOx but more expensive). In the right hands, it should be able to do everything. I'm still learning so I've had mixed results.

One super stone sale later (Knives & Tools UK) and I've added a 1k and 10k. Bevel-setting and finishing are the two most important stages in honing, so it seemed like a good idea to do these on stones and fill in the gaps with lapping film.

Lapping film is good stuff but it loses some "bite" as it wears down. Stones should cut more consistently: that probably helps while you're learning.

The 10k is interesting. Some seem to prefer it to the 12k. I've heard people say the 10k is close to 3u lapping film and others that it's more like 1.5u (with the 12k around 1u). Both may be a bit finer than the numbers suggest. Lots of good edges have been honed with both stones.

It's worth remembering that sub-micron sharpness isn't necessarily a good thing. I much prefer a relaxed, easy shave with a milder edge.

I'm planning to lap my stones with a large tile and 320 grit wet & dry.

This video is interesting to see how one guy hones his super stones. The slurry raised seems to be part of his technique.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Thanks for all the help. I have ordered the sandpaper and the Naniwas. I will flatten the stones as suggested above. I also have some inexpensive razors coming in from eBay. I will start with those. Thanks again.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I think I'm in the same boat as you. My first plan:
* wet & dry sandpaper 500 & 1000 grit
* lapping film 30-12-9-5-3-1u
* balsa wood strop with CrOx
* balsa wood strop with FeOx

This is quite a cheap setup (diamond pastes are a more modern alternative to CrOx and FeOx but more expensive). In the right hands, it should be able to do everything. I'm still learning so I've had mixed results.

One super stone sale later (Knives & Tools UK) and I've added a 1k and 10k. Bevel-setting and finishing are the two most important stages in honing, so it seemed like a good idea to do these on stones and fill in the gaps with lapping film.

Lapping film is good stuff but it loses some "bite" as it wears down. Stones should cut more consistently: that probably helps while you're learning.

The 10k is interesting. Some seem to prefer it to the 12k. I've heard people say the 10k is close to 3u lapping film and others that it's more like 1.5u (with the 12k around 1u). Both may be a bit finer than the numbers suggest. Lots of good edges have been honed with both stones.

It's worth remembering that sub-micron sharpness isn't necessarily a good thing. I much prefer a relaxed, easy shave with a milder edge.

I'm planning to lap my stones with a large tile and 320 grit wet & dry.

This video is interesting to see how one guy hones his super stones. The slurry raised seems to be part of his technique.

Cost of diamond paste is trivial. You use very little of it. CrOx and FeOx have been used for generations, with so-so results. You are saving a penny or two on every honing session, and giving up diamond results. I realize that "good enough" is good enough for many people, but for some of us, only the best we can do it good enough. I even tried Method-style balsa stropping with CrOx and FeOx. I gave these old school abrasives every chance to perform as well as diamond. Guess what I am using now? Between posts and while watching youtubes, I am finishing some razors on my lapped balsa and diamond paste progression. I gave up on the old school stuff even though it is cheaper and I am all about cheap.

A bevel setting stone will see a lot of use. Setting bevels goes through a lot of film. But you will also want a pre-bevel repair and correction stone, somewhere around a 320 or maybe even a 600 grit of a good brand. Alternately if you will not be honing enough razors from scratch to justify the expense of a seldom used coarse stone, you can use sandpaper on acrylic.

I would not worry about a 10k. It falls between the 3u and 1u film. That's not much gap to fill. If anything, go for a 12k (JIS scale) finisher like a Naniwa SS, but it is not really needed. With the money saved, you can buy about 200 lifetimes' supply of diamond paste.

Slurry cuts fast. However, when lapping a stone, slurry can prematurely grind away the grid and make you think you are done, when you are not. If possible, keep water running on the sandpaper as you lap your stone, so that slurry does NOT accumulate. As for honing with slurry, kinda same thing. It cuts fast. Can be beneficial in some stages of the honing process, depending on your honing methodology. However, it also rounds or blunts the apex a bit. This is why the dilucot method works for coticule honing. You start out with a heavy slurry to get the heavy lifting done, then gradually dilute it as you hone to develop a finer and finer edge until at the end, you are honing with just water.

Film smoothing out over many sessions is not necessarily a bad thing. You just use more laps, but get a finer result. Usually it cuts really fast the first couple dozen laps, them mellows out a degree and maintains that for a dozen razors, then starts to smooth out and eventually reaches the point where you will want to discard the old and start using a new piece. I generally get a dozen razors from a piece. My film mentor, @Seraphim, gets a lot more. The point of diminished returns is a good piece down the road.

Sub micron sharpness is definitely always a good thing, if the razor still shaves smoothly and you understand how to handle a sharp razor. I cut my fingers more than I cut my face LOL! I can't even remember my last shaving cut, even though my razors, especially my personal razors, are very sharp.

Not to take anything away from Glen, cause he hones a lot of razors for a lot of satisfied customers, but we do have a lot of fundamental differences in our honing philosophies and practices. TBH I have not shaved with one of his edges but if I thought his methods would give me a sharper and smoother edge, I would emulate him and see. Likewise he feels the same, I am sure. The thing is, following his example precisely will, at the very least, give you a very useable edge. But if you mix and match all the little details, you will not come up with a better way to hone. You will have an edge that is analogous to Homer Simpson's car design. Go one or the other, please. Freestyle it when you have a few excellent edges under your belt. Experiment AFTER you have a baseline to compare with. Choose a path, and follow it, for now, is my suggestion. This will give you a measure of success with your first or at least by your second attempt at honing. Do it randomly and you will be a very long time achieving an edge that satisfies you, if ever.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I started sharpening knives many years ago. I was never able to emulate others or follow prescribed methods. After a while, I formed my own way to do it. Now I can touch up a knife quickly. Of course, razors are different. I only sharpen my knives to about 300 with a diamond stone. But that's enough to slice paper or tomato. 300 leaves a bit of scratch or sawtooth, but that's whatI want on my knives. That "sawtooth" will break the skin of tomato. I never went past 300 because that was good enough for me. I experimented with hard Arks, etc and came up with a polished edge. But it just did not suit me as well as the 300.

Now, moving on to razors is going to be a new ballgame. I never shaved with my knives. But I have learned to be guided by others in the journey to finding my own way.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I started sharpening knives many years ago. I was never able to emulate others or follow prescribed methods. After a while, I formed my own way to do it. Now I can touch up a knife quickly. Of course, razors are different. I only sharpen my knives to about 300 with a diamond stone. But that's enough to slice paper or tomato. 300 leaves a bit of scratch or sawtooth, but that's whatI want on my knives. That "sawtooth" will break the skin of tomato. I never went past 300 because that was good enough for me. I experimented with hard Arks, etc and came up with a polished edge. But it just did not suit me as well as the 300.

Now, moving on to razors is going to be a new ballgame. I never shaved with my knives. But I have learned to be guided by others in the journey to finding my own way.

I like a toothy edge on my knives, too. They just work. A razor edge is seldom needed on a knife, apart from very specialized knives for specialized jobs. Less spit and polish will actually get more real work done.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Cost of diamond paste is trivial. You use very little of it. CrOx and FeOx have been used for generations, with so-so results. You are saving a penny or two on every honing session, and giving up diamond results. I realize that "good enough" is good enough for many people, but for some of us, only the best we can do it good enough. I even tried Method-style balsa stropping with CrOx and FeOx. I gave these old school abrasives every chance to perform as well as diamond. Guess what I am using now? Between posts and while watching youtubes, I am finishing some razors on my lapped balsa and diamond paste progression. I gave up on the old school stuff even though it is cheaper and I am all about cheap.

A bevel setting stone will see a lot of use. Setting bevels goes through a lot of film. But you will also want a pre-bevel repair and correction stone, somewhere around a 320 or maybe even a 600 grit of a good brand. Alternately if you will not be honing enough razors from scratch to justify the expense of a seldom used coarse stone, you can use sandpaper on acrylic.

I would not worry about a 10k. It falls between the 3u and 1u film. That's not much gap to fill. If anything, go for a 12k (JIS scale) finisher like a Naniwa SS, but it is not really needed. With the money saved, you can buy about 200 lifetimes' supply of diamond paste.

Slurry cuts fast. However, when lapping a stone, slurry can prematurely grind away the grid and make you think you are done, when you are not. If possible, keep water running on the sandpaper as you lap your stone, so that slurry does NOT accumulate. As for honing with slurry, kinda same thing. It cuts fast. Can be beneficial in some stages of the honing process, depending on your honing methodology. However, it also rounds or blunts the apex a bit. This is why the dilucot method works for coticule honing. You start out with a heavy slurry to get the heavy lifting done, then gradually dilute it as you hone to develop a finer and finer edge until at the end, you are honing with just water.

Film smoothing out over many sessions is not necessarily a bad thing. You just use more laps, but get a finer result. Usually it cuts really fast the first couple dozen laps, them mellows out a degree and maintains that for a dozen razors, then starts to smooth out and eventually reaches the point where you will want to discard the old and start using a new piece. I generally get a dozen razors from a piece. My film mentor, @Seraphim, gets a lot more. The point of diminished returns is a good piece down the road.

Sub micron sharpness is definitely always a good thing, if the razor still shaves smoothly and you understand how to handle a sharp razor. I cut my fingers more than I cut my face LOL! I can't even remember my last shaving cut, even though my razors, especially my personal razors, are very sharp.

Not to take anything away from Glen, cause he hones a lot of razors for a lot of satisfied customers, but we do have a lot of fundamental differences in our honing philosophies and practices. TBH I have not shaved with one of his edges but if I thought his methods would give me a sharper and smoother edge, I would emulate him and see. Likewise he feels the same, I am sure. The thing is, following his example precisely will, at the very least, give you a very useable edge. But if you mix and match all the little details, you will not come up with a better way to hone. You will have an edge that is analogous to Homer Simpson's car design. Go one or the other, please. Freestyle it when you have a few excellent edges under your belt. Experiment AFTER you have a baseline to compare with. Choose a path, and follow it, for now, is my suggestion. This will give you a measure of success with your first or at least by your second attempt at honing. Do it randomly and you will be a very long time achieving an edge that satisfies you, if ever.

 

[Ridgeback]

The sanding screens look interesting to me, though at first glance they appear to be a bit coarser. They would probably work for "heavy lifting" but the stones might need to be conditioned further before use.

I find lapping with a diamond plate to be more convenient than tile and sandpaper.

I started out lapping with tile and sandpaper. If I could travel back in time and talk myself into getting a diamond plate as soon as I realized I was going to stick with honing, I would have told myself to get an Atoma 400 or DMT D8C 325.

The convenience of a diamond plate is worth the investment.

Sic powder and a surface lapping plate would be the other alternative I'd consider, though not as convenient as a diamond plate.

What he said!....Just spend the money on a diamond plate...If you are just flattening your stone it will last a long long time....And save grief with messing around with sandpaper and most likely not a flat surface.

 

[Slash McCoy]

What he said!....Just spend the money on a diamond plate...If you are just flattening your stone it will last a long long time....And save grief with messing around with sandpaper and most likely not a flat surface.

Diamond plates are great, except for one problem. They are usually no bigger than the stone you are trying to flatten. So, there is considerable overrun. This is the main reason I prefer sandpaper on polished tile or glass or acrylic. It is not only as flat as whatever you select for a plate, but it is big enough to at least minimize overrun. If you are a "that oughta be good enough" type, then ignore this comment.

 

[McBlade]

What do you think about a tiny bit of dish soap on a super stone to help stop it loading up?

 

[Ridgeback]

Diamond plates are great, except for one problem. They are usually no bigger than the stone you are trying to flatten. So, there is considerable overrun. This is the main reason I prefer sandpaper on polished tile or glass or acrylic. It is not only as flat as whatever you select for a plate, but it is big enough to at least minimize overrun. If you are a "that oughta be good enough" type, then ignore this comment.

I have multiple engineers plates...I do Not consider tile,glass or acrylic to be flat...So we are on a different page about what is flat....And I have had no issues using a diamond plate to flattened any stone I've had.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have multiple engineers plates...I do Not consider tile,glass or acrylic to be flat...So we are on a different page about what is flat....And I have had no issues using a diamond plate to flattened any stone I've had.

Obviously we are not on the same page regarding overrun, either. I believe that is a bigger issue than the difference between being flat to within .001" and .0001".

 

[alx gilmore]

Funny how a question on Sanding Screen turns into a discussion on honing technique.
I have been using Sanding Screens for about 6 months now and highly recommend them. Even on the hardest stones they are very effective. Also they lay flat and don't move around without any adhesive on a tile base. They do wear out but what doesn't, but you will be surprised after 5 or 10 stones how sharp they still bite. I use mine under running water.

Alex

PS. Not meaning to be confrontational here but quality tiles are usually flat enough for razors. I have a certified engineers block and it is too flat, and if you use it with an abrasive to flatten stones it will no longer be certifiable.

Alx

 

[Eastcoast30]

Funny how a question on Sanding Screen turns into a discussion on honing technique.
I have been using Sanding Screens for about 6 months now and highly recommend them. Even on the hardest stones they are very effective. Also they lay flat and don't move around without any adhesive on a tile base. They do wear out but what doesn't, but you will be surprised after 5 or 10 stones how sharp they still bite. I use mine under running water.

Alex

PS. Not meaning to be confrontational here but quality tiles are usually flat enough for razors. I have a certified engineers block and it is too flat, and if you use it with an abrasive to flatten stones it will no longer be certifiable.

Alx

Good info - I will pick up a few screens - 320 I think.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Good info - I will pick up a few screens - 320 I think.

I haven'tbeen able to find any 320. And most screens I find are on the small side. Can you provide a link for the screens you use.