Rooney/M&F finest vs gel-tip

[Sukeroku]

I cannot seem to find a thread answering this question:

Is there a difference between the "gel-tip" and "finest" grades
for Lee Sabani knots or are they the same knot with
different nomenclature?

 

[Space_Cadet]

"gel-tip" is not a grade of hair.

 

[Sukeroku]

Thank you for your reply. Perhaps, I worded my question
poorly. When people speak of "gel-tip" which grade of hair
are they referring to?

 

[SliceOfLife]

APshave sells "Gel Tip" knots. Oumo (A chinese knot seller on Alibaba) is believed to be the source. They sell it as "OUMO gel tip knot Manchuria Finest Two Band Badger Hair Knot".

Gel-Tip is sometimes used to describe other knots that demonstrate hooked tips, but I don't believe anyone SELLS "gel tip" knots under the name "gel tip" who isn't selling a recently designed Chinese manufacturer's (possibly exclusive to Oumo, but probably other vendors sell them as well) knot that uses a (chemical, heat, ?) treatment to soften and curl the tips of (usually) two-band badger.

 

[Sukeroku]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I am more interest specifically in the Lee Sabini knots
that he made for Rooney and M&F. If anyone has any specific information regarding the
"gel-tip" hair for those brands specifically and which grade of badger hair it refers to, it would
be most appreciated.

 

[kooshman7]

I'm not the definitive guide to this, but I was around when gel tip started, and feel I can provide a good amount of information. Someone here first referred to it as that, and since then it has taken off. Gel tip first entered the scene around the start of January 2010. I date it to this as I purchased a 2-band Heritage Rooney Brush, a Stubby 1 in particular, from Vintage Blades around that time right after it came out and reading a review here about it. In terms of what grade of hair, it can be any grade of hair, but it is typically 2-band hair that get this reference, and it is not limited to just one manufacturer.

Since that time more and more gel tipped brushes have come out, and really you can find it from just about every manufacturer. It would be easier to state in a way which ones I have personally tried that haven't had gel tips I almost feel. Even then you won't get this in every batch. It is likely to be in the processing, and as far as I know there has been no confirmation from the hair providers as to how they make this, but the likely supposition is it is bleached as there have been members that have taken two band brushes that did not have this

To me a gel tipped brush takes on a wet, almost slimy appearance and feel to it when used. You will also notice from some pictures of the brushes wet that the hairs clump together in sort of a honeycombing effect. Often the tips have a hooked appearance where the tips curl dry. I would say this is a good indicator if the brush is gel tipped or not, but you do get a few outliers that aren't as pronounced in tip curling that still have a good face feel to them, but in the end they still exhibit a softer feel than a more natural, untouched hair would. A better word for this I believe would be it has a silky feeling to it. It's not as pronounced a difference as the first Rooney 2-band Heritage Brush I experienced, but it is still different from the more natural 2-band hairs. Personally I have a hate/love relationship with gel tips, and find it is too easy to go too far into this territory that is my hang up. That is just me personally.

In terms of what grades I have seen it in Rooney 2-band Heritage, I have heard from another member who has an extensive Rooney Finest collection that there are brushes there that have a gel tip feel whom I would trust explicitly, he knows Rooney Finest with over 30+, I have felt it in Simpson Manchurian, Brad Sears 2-band, Rooney 2-band Heritage, Declaration Grooming B1 Franklin (frankly, that is the closest match up I have experienced to Rooney 2-band Heritage of old, Black Eagle pre-hand tied, M&F Blonde and Finest knots, Shavemac 2-band Silvertip only, Thater 2-band Silvertip, and others I am forgetting about right now I'm sure. Oh, Paladin, Paladin has gel tip too of course, and looking on their knot information you can read his comments about the knots. In terms of finding a gel tipped brush I would probably recommend Paladin just for the information on the knot codes he has available, but that is not to say to limit your options either. You can find it in Oumo knots, Gelosity knots, and others. Ask the seller if in doubt if it has gel tips.

 

[Space_Cadet]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I am more interest specifically in the Lee Sabini knots
that he made for Rooney and M&F. If anyone has any specific information regarding the
"gel-tip" hair for those brands specifically and which grade of badger hair it refers to, it would
be most appreciated.

There is no more Rooney. They have stopped making brushes a few years ago.
As to M&F, you can buy them from Brad Sears, but they are not as good as the old M&F used to be. For me, Brad Sears' own knots are better.
Also, I would second @kooshman7 advice and go for Paladin. Their knots are first class.

 

[BigJ]

I'm not the definitive guide to this, but I was around when gel tip started, and feel I can provide a good amount of information. Someone here first referred to it as that, and since then it has taken off. Gel tip first entered the scene around the start of January 2010. I date it to this as I purchased a 2-band Heritage Rooney Brush, a Stubby 1 in particular, from Vintage Blades around that time right after it came out and reading a review here about it. In terms of what grade of hair, it can be any grade of hair, but it is typically 2-band hair that get this reference, and it is not limited to just one manufacturer.

Since that time more and more gel tipped brushes have come out, and really you can find it from just about every manufacturer. It would be easier to state in a way which ones I have personally tried that haven't had gel tips I almost feel. Even then you won't get this in every batch. It is likely to be in the processing, and as far as I know there has been no confirmation from the hair providers as to how they make this, but the likely supposition is it is bleached as there have been members that have taken two band brushes that did not have this

To me a gel tipped brush takes on a wet, almost slimy appearance and feel to it when used. You will also notice from some pictures of the brushes wet that the hairs clump together in sort of a honeycombing effect. Often the tips have a hooked appearance where the tips curl dry. I would say this is a good indicator if the brush is gel tipped or not, but you do get a few outliers that aren't as pronounced in tip curling that still have a good face feel to them, but in the end they still exhibit a softer feel than a more natural, untouched hair would. A better word for this I believe would be it has a silky feeling to it. It's not as pronounced a difference as the first Rooney 2-band Heritage Brush I experienced, but it is still different from the more natural 2-band hairs. Personally I have a hate/love relationship with gel tips, and find it is too easy to go too far into this territory that is my hang up. That is just me personally.

In terms of what grades I have seen it in Rooney 2-band Heritage, I have heard from another member who has an extensive Rooney Finest collection that there are brushes there that have a gel tip feel whom I would trust explicitly, he knows Rooney Finest with over 30+, I have felt it in Simpson Manchurian, Brad Sears 2-band, Rooney 2-band Heritage, Declaration Grooming B1 Franklin (frankly, that is the closest match up I have experienced to Rooney 2-band Heritage of old, Black Eagle pre-hand tied, M&F Blonde and Finest knots, Shavemac 2-band Silvertip only, Thater 2-band Silvertip, and others I am forgetting about right now I'm sure. Oh, Paladin, Paladin has gel tip too of course, and looking on their knot information you can read his comments about the knots. In terms of finding a gel tipped brush I would probably recommend Paladin just for the information on the knot codes he has available, but that is not to say to limit your options either. You can find it in Oumo knots, Gelosity knots, and others. Ask the seller if in doubt if it has gel tips.

Great discussion and comparison!! Thanks!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Interesting to think about how much or how little processing (of tips using chemicals and/or heat) goes on. One wonders if there are any entirely natural knots?

Most manufacturers don't seem very transparent at all about their knots. Paladin being a notable exception.

I have very little experience with so called gel tips beyond my one Gelousy 28 mm (middle brush in photo). However, I should mention that my copper handled Zenith Manchurian which started off as soft as a jackhammer is now well broken in and feels about as soft as the Gelousy (the wet Gelousy, not the dry knot). However, the Zenith has far different characteristics and a far different feel, a feel which is to me much more enjoyable than the silky soft feel of the Gelousy.

I realize the above paragraph doesn't entirely make sense, but it's the best I can do with the description and comparison.

I'm not saying the Zenith Manchurian isn't chemically treated, but it feels far more natural and "right" to me. Admittedly that took a while.

Happy shaves,

Jim