Rocnel Elite

[LRod]

It still baffles me..... how subjective this wet shaving thing is. When my experience doesn't mirror someone else's esp. when that person usually likes what I like, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Two examples just in the past few weeks. @Mr. Shavington always gets a great shave with his Overlander. I can't seem to get it to work. @LRod / Larry loves the X1 and so do I but can't get the Elite dialed in to any degree and both my shaves with it were right up there with the Blutt BR-1 1.20 and the ATT X1 AC Slant.

The general consensus is usually.... well, it's your technique, but in both these cases, I don't think it's that simple. When I first used the Elite, I was surprised at how efficient it was right away.. and smooth... the exact opposite of Larry's experience. And now, @Mr. Shavington notes he can't seem to get his Nodachi working for him but for Larry, it provides his best shaves ever. Both of you have lots of shaving experience so I continue to find this puzzling.

The collective "we" then resorts to "YMMV", which of course, turns out to be true but it still doesn't satisfy me. I would prefer to know the "why's", I guess. I might be expecting too much, though shaving isn't rocket science and shouldn't that difficult to figure out.

You said it best Kim with all you wrote here!
It is all puzzling and I don't know what to make of it. I've never been one for too much learning curve, technique etc., when it comes to shaving. Usually things quickly work and that's it!
But maybe it is rocket science with this one, Lol!!

 

[APBinNCA]

We'll, I'm not going to give up yet. Something can't be right and I'm gonna have to figure it out. Even though I usually quickly pass on things like this! I think @Phoenixkh described all of this best with what he posted right after you. You asked is there something different as to the designs of these different razors and the required techniques?
I don't know, Lol!!
The Tatara for you doesn't work and the Elite doesn't work for me (yet).
It all seems crazy to me!

I do understand what is going on here, but it's an individual journey. It can be explained 10 different ways, but until it clicks for you, it's just gibberish. The razors with a more fixed angle are more universal. I was debating whether to say anything, I did mention my trouble with the Timeless in your thread.

I am going to recommend what was recommended to me: forget your preferred technique for a few shaves. Do as has been described a hundred times to achieve a steep angle, safety bar down first, lift the handle till the blade contacts, yada yada. The key is that you shouldn't have lather accumulating on the top cap, as I was told. It means you aren't maintaining a steep enough angle and rolling onto the cap. With the Timeless, this allows the safety bar to float and can produce a rough shave. It's weird at first having the handle almost parallel to your face, but this helps with the head heavy balance as well.

I am not saying you have to end up liking shaving super steep, I am just saying that if you want to figure this razor out before moving on, you should try it.

 

[LRod]

I do understand what is going on here, but it's an individual journey. It can be explained 10 different ways, but until it clicks for you, it's just gibberish. The razors with a more fixed angle are more universal. I was debating whether to say anything, I did mention my trouble with the Timeless in your thread.

I am going to recommend what was recommended to me: forget your preferred technique for a few shaves. Do as has been described a hundred times to achieve a steep angle, safety bar down first, lift the handle till the blade contacts, yada yada. The key is that you shouldn't have lather accumulating on the top cap, as I was told. It means you aren't maintaining a steep enough angle and rolling onto the cap. With the Timeless, this allows the safety bar to float and can produce a rough shave. It's weird at first having the handle almost parallel to your face, but this helps with the head heavy balance as well.

I am not saying you have to end up liking shaving super steep, I am just saying that if you want to figure this razor out before moving on, you should try it.

I've already tried super steep and that whole procedure that you've said! But now I'm thinking that this razor might actually not be a very steep razor after all. I was just sitting here and analyzing the razor. I looked at it from every angle and put it up to my face at every angle as well (I'm not actually shaving now, just analyzing). The edge of the base sticks out substantially as compared to the bottom of the top cap edge which means that at a very steep angle, the blade would never engage. And just sitting here while putting it up to my face confirms that! And the fact that it barely has blade exposure, further adds to this. Starting steep and working the angle up, I'm not engaging any hair till about 20 degrees. And the more shallower I go, the more I feel the blade engage. So it might all be the reverse of what I did on the first 2 shaves. Weird!
I'm going to try again in todays shave to see if what I'm seeing correlates!
Matter of fact, I'm gonna put in a shave right now. I've got over 12 hours of growth right now! Not that much since I finished last nights shave with the Tatara, but it will suffice for the purpose of this test!

 

[APBinNCA]

I understand exactly what you are saying about the base plate, it sounds like you are on the right track. I would switch to a "universal" Gillette platinum or equivalent. Good luck!

 

[LRod]

We'll I guess I figured it out!
Apparently the angle on this razor is like I had analyzed. I went with the exact contour of the head (proportional to the top cap and bottom plate) and I got an excellent smooth & close shave. About the usual 30 degrees that I prefer. For some reason I guess on the first 2 shaves I avoided that angle assuming that steep was working best. The razor felt more natural that way during those 2 shaves. So for those that like "super steep", I don't know how that would be possible with this razor since at those heavy steep angles you don't get any engagement.
One thing also is that like I mentioned before, it has very little blade exposure. I'm not used to that! I'm used to hearing and feeling the blade and I apparently use that as a gauge.
Bottom line is that I figured it out but will have to remember that angle when I shave with the Rocnel.
Lesson learned for me:
Give it more time and analyze the details.
Some razors (most that I've had) are more universal but this one is an anomaly for me.
I will keep shaving with it and perfect it. I'm sure it will be on the top of my razors. The shave I got was great and I love the feel and look of this razor. I'm very happy that the investment in the Rocnel will pay off, Lol!!
LRod

 

[Mr. Shavington]

We'll I guess I figured it out!
Apparently the angle on this razor is like I had analyzed. I went with the exact contour of the head (proportional to the top cap and bottom plate) and I got an excellent smooth & close shave. About the usual 30 degrees that I prefer. For some reason I guess on the first 2 shaves I avoided that angle assuming that steep was working best. The razor felt more natural that way during those 2 shaves. So for those that like "super steep", I don't know how that would be possible with this razor since at those heavy steep angles you don't get any engagement.
One thing also is that like I mentioned before, it has very little blade exposure. I'm not used to that! I'm used to hearing and feeling the blade and I apparently use that as a gauge.
Bottom line is that I figured it out but will have to remember that angle when I shave with the Rocnel.
Lesson learned for me:
Give it more time and analyze the details.
Some razors (most that I've had) are more universal but this one is an anomaly for me.
I will keep shaving with it and perfect it. I'm sure it will be on the top of my razors. The shave I got was great and I love the feel and look of this razor. I'm very happy that the investment in the Rocnel will pay off, Lol!!
LRod

That’s great. I’ll say I’m naturally a steep shaver but with the Elite I use a more neutral angle. I just use the angle that seems to shave best - normally you can hear and feel when you have it.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I don't shave steep on purpose... I just adjust from the steep position until the shave angle is right for a razor. Some people start from the shallow position and go from there.. I do the opposite. I don't think it matters as long as you end up with an angle that works for a particular razor.

Larry, I'm glad you figured it out. As I've mentioned repeatedly, I have no idea why I can't figure the Overlander out.

 

[APBinNCA]

I have no idea why I can't figure the Overlander out.

The gap is significantly less than your other razor. I wonder if lifting the handle until the blade feel is comfortable is not enough to get it into the optimum range for cutting? Maybe other people that like it, like a deeper shave. You can also try a curling stroke instead a swipe, it might reveal where the angle is.

 

[Phoenixkh]

The gap is significantly less than your other razor. I wonder if lifting the handle until the blade feel is comfortable is not enough to get it into the optimum range for cutting? Maybe other people that like it, like a deeper shave. You can also try a curling stroke instead a swipe, it might reveal where the angle is.

I got the British Flat Bottom Tech to work right off the bat.... and this was when I first started using a DE razor, coming from my AC Claymore Evo. That's one of the things that puzzle me. The Techs are supposed to be mild, though the Claymore is actually pretty mild as well. The X1, Blutt and Elite are all more efficient, agreed. But should the Overlander be more difficult to use for me than the BFBT? I wouldn't think so... but it is.

I looked.. I've used the 7 O'clock and Wizamet blades in the Overlander... could it just be I need to choose another blade?

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I got the British Flat Bottom Tech to work right off the bat.... and this was when I first started using a DE razor, coming from my AC Claymore Evo. That's one of the things that puzzle me. The Techs are supposed to be mild, though the Claymore is actually pretty mild as well. The X1, Blutt and Elite are all more efficient, agreed. But should the Overlander be more difficult to use for me than the BFBT? I wouldn't think so... but it is.

I looked.. I've used the 7 O'clock and Wizamet blades in the Overlander... could it just be I need to choose another blade?

Gillette Techs have positive +0.09mm blade exposure, don’t they? The Overlander is +0.07mm blade exposure. So a bit less. Dare you use a Kai?

 

[Phoenixkh]

Gillette Techs have positive +0.09mm blade exposure, don’t they? The Overlander is +0.07mm blade exposure. So a bit less. Dare you use a Kai?

I'll try a Kai next time I use it.. that might just be the ticket.

 

[LRod]

I don't shave steep on purpose... I just adjust from the steep position until the shave angle is right for a razor. Some people start from the shallow position and go from there.. I do the opposite. I don't think it matters as long as you end up with an angle that works for a particular razor.

Larry, I'm glad you figured it out. As I've mentioned repeatedly, I have no idea why I can't figure the Overlander out.

I've had a Karve Christopher Bradley but never an Overlander. I always avoided the Overlander because everyone said it was mild & no blade feel. But I did read that it was an easy autopilot razor that didn't require much effort for an efficient shave. Maybe yours has a defect or something. You never know!
Was it the same before you had it plated?

 

[LRod]

I got the British Flat Bottom Tech to work right off the bat....

I've gotten everything to work right off the bat except the Elite!
The razors I've sold were not because I couldn't get them to work. They were sold because I simply didn't like the dynamics of the machine itself (resulting in a shave or feel that I just didn't like). Your Overlander might just be one of those examples!
Maybe others that own the Overlander might like whatever you're not liking!

 

[LRod]

Gillette Techs have positive +0.09mm blade exposure, don’t they? The Overlander is +0.07mm blade exposure. So a bit less. Dare you use a Kai?

The Tech's I had, felt like they had no blade exposure whatsoever. So much so that my "steel" whiskers were totally resistant to their lack of efficiency. I do 2 passes only! If I do more, I get irritation. And with those Tech's, I'd need like 4!
On the other hand, I have a Star 100 which was American Safety Razors (sort of) copy of the Tech. It's fantastic! It's essentially a Tech with a tad more blade gap + some blade exposure.

 

[Phoenixkh]

I've had a Karve Christopher Bradley but never an Overlander. I always avoided the Overlander because everyone said it was mild & no blade feel. But I did read that it was an easy autopilot razor that didn't require much effort for an efficient shave. Maybe yours has a defect or something. You never know!
Was it the same before you had it plated?

I bought it used and had the seller mail it directly to Chris for replating. The plating is so thin, I can't imagine it changing the design. I guess that's possible but unlikely?

 

[LRod]

I bought it used and had the seller mail it directly to Chris for replating. The plating is so thin, I can't imagine it changing the design. I guess that's possible but unlikely?

Thinking about it, my Hoffritz shaves exactly the same after I replated it so I guess that shouldn't affect it.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I don't shave steep on purpose... I just adjust from the steep position until the shave angle is right for a razor. Some people start from the shallow position and go from there.. I do the opposite. I don't think it matters as long as you end up with an angle that works for a particular razor.

Larry, I'm glad you figured it out. As I've mentioned repeatedly, I have no idea why I can't figure the Overlander out.

FWIW, I just shaved with my Overlander to refresh my memory. It was dreamy, like every other time. I’m using a fairly neutral angle, similar to the Elite. Again, it’s just where I hear and feel the blade cutting best. I think I’ve always used Kais in the Overlander, so maybe I’ve got a touch more blade to feel the angle.

I agree with @APBinNCA about doing a few curved strokes, kinda twisting my wrist during the stroke so it covers all angles. It does help to sense where the most effective angle is. It sort of becomes instinctive finding the angle - listening and feeling where the blade is cutting. Hard to describe, really, and it’s just something that becomes natural and unconscious after time.

The Athena has less blade exposure than the Overlander - none at all, according to Lambda - but I think you’ll find it easy to shave with as there is so much auditory feedback that it doesn’t seem like a zero exposure razor. You’ll see what I mean when you try it.

 

[Phoenixkh]

FWIW, I just shaved with my Overlander to refresh my memory. It was dreamy, like every other time. I’m using a fairly neutral angle, similar to the Elite. Again, it’s just where I hear and feel the blade cutting best. I think I’ve always used Kais in the Overlander, so maybe I’ve got a touch more blade to feel the angle.

I agree with @APBinNCA about doing a few curved strokes, kinda twisting my wrist during the stroke so it covers all angles. It does help to sense where the most effective angle is. It sort of becomes instinctive finding the angle - listening and feeling where the blade is cutting. Hard to describe, really, and it’s just something that becomes natural and unconscious after time.

The Athena has less blade exposure than the Overlander - none at all, according to Lambda - but I think you’ll find it easy to shave with as there is so much auditory feedback that it doesn’t seem like a zero exposure razor. You’ll see what I mean when you try it.

That's what I find odd.... that's always what I do... lift the handle until I feel the blade engage and continue lifting it up until I find what I think is the perfect angle and raising and lowering the handle as I go to improve the angle as I continue. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong with the Overlander.... I will try it with a Kai next.. perhaps that will reveal what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Rosseforp]

I agree with @APBinNCA about doing a few curved strokes, kinda twisting my wrist during the stroke so it covers all angles.

I do that with my ASD2 it is so mild under my jawline. Start steep and sweep the razor to shallow and find the sweet spot in between.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong with the Overlander.... I will try it with a Kai next.. perhaps that will reveal what I'm doing wrong.

I was going to suggest a Kai. I have only tried one in my ASD2 and I felt the blade right away. Not like it changed the razor from mild to wild, but from no blade feel to some blade feel.

~doug~

 

[LRod]

Just had my nightly 2 pass WTG/XTG shave with the Elite and it was really good.
Switched back to my usual Personna Lab Blues for this shave and they worked very well.
Thus far I think I mostly figured this thing out. Closeness of the shave (almost) rivals the Nodachi & the Outlaw.
I don't really think it's designed anyways to match those two on a 2 pass WTG/XTG shave.
I can't expect that out of every razor, especially one that has much less blade exposure.
If I'm to keep the Elite, I'll for sure have to get used to the lack of blade feel.
But in the end, it gave me a nice, smooth & decently close shave with a nice audible sound.
We'll see how I progress with the Rocnel!