Revisited Van Der Hagen Deluxe - Garbage!

[pdieten]

A Camry is not a luxury product, but it is well made and the $25,000 MSRP can hardly be called inexpensive. I would consider this the equivalent of a $15 soap. VDH sells for less than $3.00 per puck; that is why I compared it to the Yugo which sold for $4000 in 1986.

The phrase "mass market" must mean something different to you.

A mass market product is going to be available for sale off the shelf in a store that does not specialize in mens' shaving products. They are sold in general merchandise stores. If you have to mail order or visit a men's shaving specialty store to buy it, then it is by definition NOT a mass market product.

Van Der Hagen soap is a mass market product.
Williams Mug soap is a mass market product.
Proraso is a mass market product.
Palmolive shave sticks are a mass market product.
Tabac is a mass market product.

I think that the producers of all of those products would be highly insulted by the insinuation that they are not well made or that they are of Yugo quality. They are professionally and consistently manufactured by organizations that have successfully built markets with products equal to the expectations of a large base of customers, such that they have earned widespread distribution.

But note that none of those things cost $50 or more per pound in their home markets, in the way that artisan soaps do. In the same way that no normal person is going to buy a $75,000 car instead of a $25,000 car, no normal person is going to seek out or pay for artisan shaving products. That is something that hobbyists do. If you are a hobbyist who has decided that mass market products simply aren't good enough for your taste, then so be it; you are entitled to purchase what you want. But let's not create any confusion about where the center of the market is. If you're looking at a product that costs $15 for a 4-ounce portion and thinking that that is the standard price for a usable shaving soap, I would say that that opinion is not particularly realistic.

 

[EricSki]

The phrase "mass market" must mean something different to you.

A mass market product is going to be available for sale off the shelf in a store that does not specialize in mens' shaving products. They are sold in general merchandise stores. If you have to mail order or visit a men's shaving specialty store to buy it, then it is by definition NOT a mass market product.

Van Der Hagen soap is a mass market product.
Williams Mug soap is a mass market product.
Proraso is a mass market product.
Palmolive shave sticks are a mass market product.
Tabac is a mass market product.

I think that the producers of all of those products would be highly insulted by the insinuation that they are not well made or that they are of Yugo quality. They are professionally and consistently manufactured by organizations that have successfully built markets with products equal to the expectations of a large base of customers, such that they have earned widespread distribution.

But note that none of those things cost $50 or more per pound in their home markets, in the way that artisan soaps do. In the same way that no normal person is going to buy a $75,000 car instead of a $25,000 car, no normal person is going to seek out or pay for artisan shaving products. That is something that hobbyists do. If you are a hobbyist who has decided that mass market products simply aren't good enough for your taste, then so be it; you are entitled to purchase what you want. But let's not create any confusion about where the center of the market is. If you're looking at a product that costs $15 for a 4-ounce portion and thinking that that is the standard price for a usable shaving soap, I would say that that opinion is not particularly realistic.

The phrase "mass market" must mean something different to you.

A mass market product is going to be available for sale off the shelf in a store that does not specialize in mens' shaving products. They are sold in general merchandise stores. If you have to mail order or visit a men's shaving specialty store to buy it, then it is by definition NOT a mass market product.

Van Der Hagen soap is a mass market product.
Williams Mug soap is a mass market product.
Proraso is a mass market product.
Palmolive shave sticks are a mass market product.
Tabac is a mass market product.

I think that the producers of all of those products would be highly insulted by the insinuation that they are not well made or that they are of Yugo quality. They are professionally and consistently manufactured by organizations that have successfully built markets with products equal to the expectations of a large base of customers, such that they have earned widespread distribution.

But note that none of those things cost $50 or more per pound in their home markets, in the way that artisan soaps do. In the same way that no normal person is going to buy a $75,000 car instead of a $25,000 car, no normal person is going to seek out or pay for artisan shaving products. That is something that hobbyists do. If you are a hobbyist who has decided that mass market products simply aren't good enough for your taste, then so be it; you are entitled to purchase what you want. But let's not create any confusion about where the center of the market is. If you're looking at a product that costs $15 for a 4-ounce portion and thinking that that is the standard price for a usable shaving soap, I would say that that opinion is not particularly realistic.

 

[lancre]

Yeah, we dont have Winco around here. So I went full hoarder at $1.10 a puck.

What about Wegman's? $0.99/puck there too.

 

[EricSki]

What about Wegman's? $0.99/puck there too.

Unfortunately the closest one is over 4 hours away. I got 10 of them for $1.10 each on Walgreens website so I’m good for a few weeks.

 

[lancre]

From my home in Rochester, the nearest one is about 5 minutes away. $1.10 each is a good price too.

 

[EricSki]

From my home in Rochester, the nearest one is about 5 minutes away. $1.10 each is a good price too.

Rochester is actually about 4 hours from me. If I’m ever out there and I run out I’ll stock up. Thanks for the tip.

 

[FireDragon76]

VDH is easy to lather, is slick, and produces mounds of lather. Any product that contains Sodium Laureth Sulfate will meet those criteria, even dish detergent. However, the original premise of this thread is that the lather it produces is not stable and dissipates quickly. Thus, the soap provides little cushion to protect your skin from blade contact. There are some ingredients that provide some post-shave conditioning (Shea butter and Mango butter), but they are far down the list of ingredients. Toothpick has a ruddy complexion, as do I, so these later two properties are important to us. Thus, if your have tough skin and are not concerned about cushion or post-shave conditioning, VDH is a great soap. If you have sensitive skin and are concerned about those two properties, you will have to look elsewhere.

I have this problem with VDH, too. The lather it produces is slick but thin and weak and lacks blade protection (or even brush protection, in the case of scritchy badgers).

I've had better results with Barbasol. Which ironically also contains SLS. But for whatever reason, it works better and the lather is more protective.

 

[Chandu]

I like slick think lather. For me blade protection comes from slickness, not cushion. Perhaps that's why I get along fine with Williams, Palmira and some European soaps that people ***** about the weak or dissapating lather.

I like VDH, but I don't consider it a thin lather at all. Oh well, interesting how we get the different results with the same tools.

 

[FireDragon76]

I like slick think lather. For me blade protection comes from slickness, not cushion. Perhaps that's why I get along fine with Williams, Palmira and some European soaps that people ***** about the weak or dissapating lather.

I like VDH, but I don't consider it a thin lather at all. Oh well, interesting how we get the different results with the same tools.

FWIW, I have better results with a conditioned puck of Williams, or just about any other milled soap.

 

[RayClem]

I like slick think lather. For me blade protection comes from slickness, not cushion. Perhaps that's why I get along fine with Williams, Palmira and some European soaps that people ***** about the weak or dissapating lather.

I like VDH, but I don't consider it a thin lather at all. Oh well, interesting how we get the different results with the same tools.

The thickness of the lather depends a lot on the ratio of water added to soap used as well as the quality of the water. I had a terrible time with several soaps when my water softener failed. After replacing it, I am getting much better lathers. However, in general, soaps based on detergents (SLS or SLES) will dissipate more rapidly than those based on real soaps.

 

[FireDragon76]

The thickness of the lather depends a lot on the ratio of water added to soap used as well as the quality of the water. I had a terrible time with several soaps when my water softener failed. After replacing it, I am getting much better lathers. However, in general, soaps based on detergents (SLS or SLES) will dissipate more rapidly than those based on real soaps.

I could see VDH working better with soft water. VDH is a hybrid soap and does contain actual soap, not just detergents. It has no chelating agents to deal with hardness. It reminds me of lathering with Pears, which doesn't work too well where I live, either.

Williams lathers better in moderately hard Florida water.

Out of curiosity I lathered up some Dial-type hand soap, which is mostly all SLS. It exploded easily but it was thin and airy stuff and I wouldn't shave with it if my life depended on it.

 

[FireDragon76]

I also have trouble with VDH Deluxe, but I find the VDH Luxury soap to produce a usable lather.

You do have to load up this soap more than bloomed and broken-in Williams Mug Soap.

 

[EricSki]

I also have trouble with VDH Deluxe, but I find the VDH Luxury soap to produce a usable lather.

You do have to load up this soap more than bloomed and broken-in Williams Mug Soap.

Not for me. I’ve never had any issue with it at all. Also it doesn’t have any of the ‘Disappearing’ issues like Williams.

I’m actually surprised it gave people trouble. My only guess is you have hard water?

 

[Raissermesser]

I tried VDH Deluxe when I could no longer get Colgate shaving soap. Never had a problem. The one thing I didn't like was the fragrance. The container it comes in is simply a container to hold the soap. To use, I put it in my shaving mug and lathered.

I've lathered VDH Deluxe, Luxury, and Glycerine the same three ways.

1. Soaked in hot water to warm the mug and brush, pour off the water, shake the excess off the brush, and make the lather in the mug.

2. Wet my brush, shake out the excess water, and lather in the mug.

3. Face lather.

All three have always worked well for me with VDH soaps.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not for me. I’ve never had any issue with it at all. Also it doesn’t have any of the ‘Disappearing’ issues like Williams.

I’m actually surprised it gave people trouble. My only guess is you have hard water?

Yes, I have moderately hard water.

I'm starting to learn how to lather VDH. It doesn't look like other lathers... mostly because it isn't actual soap in the strict sense. It's really has more in common with something like Cremo, which means you shouldn't freak out if the lather looks thin, it will still work. To it's credit, it rinses clean and provides alot of razor glide, though the cushion is low. And I don't think its as effected by hard water, being as how soap isn't the most important ingredient.

I'm surprised by how idiosyncratic soaps can be.

 

[FireDragon76]

I like slick think lather. For me blade protection comes from slickness, not cushion. Perhaps that's why I get along fine with Williams, Palmira and some European soaps that people ***** about the weak or dissapating lather.

I like VDH, but I don't consider it a thin lather at all. Oh well, interesting how we get the different results with the same tools.

Yeah, I am starting to learn "disappearing lather" is not necessarily a dealbreaker. You might not see the lather, but there's still a layer of emulsion on the skin that provides glide and hydration.

I am going to try Weishi's shave cream, and one of the bullet points for it is that the lather will dissipate, but it will still provide razor glide. It looks to be mostly synthetic detergent-based, similar to Van Der Hagen.

 

[fast shaver]

Yeah, I am starting to learn "disappearing lather" is not necessarily a dealbreaker. You might not see the lather, but there's still a layer of emulsion on the skin that provides glide and hydration.

I am going to try Weishi's shave cream, and one of the bullet points for it is that the lather will dissipate, but it will still provide razor glide. It looks to be mostly synthetic detergent-based, similar to Van Der Hagen.

Please do a review as it sounds very interesting.!

 

[FireDragon76]

Please do a review as it sounds very interesting.!

Done :

weishi shave cream

I had my first shave with Weishi's new shave cream today. https://www.amazon.com/Astonishingly-Superior-Smooth-Shaving-Fights/dp/B07PLM2W5C/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=weishi+shave+cream&qid=1571744875&sr=8-1 The product packaging says the cream was designed in Japan for Weishi. It's like a hybrid...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[razorhead63]

VdH is a decent soap for the price.
I’ve not used the Deluxe yet, just the glycerin and the Luxury.
They’ve both performed well.
The lather was thick enough and slick too.

 

[pdieten]

Yeah, if there's one thing to be learned from all this, it's that you shouldn't pass judgment on a product after just one use. If it's good enough to be marketable, there is a substantial probability that the issue with it is operator error.

Had this happen with a puck of Edwin Jagger soap a few months ago. Had such poor luck with it the first time I almost threw it out, tried it again a few months later and it worked fine. Not the best soap I've ever used but perfectly serviceable. Most things are, including VDH Deluxe. It's not going to be the best soap for everyone, not by a long shot, but it is functional and that's all anyone, including its maker, asks of it.