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Review Thread for 8/8 Damascus Bois de Rose Maestro Livi

Joel,

I am appalled by the flaws. The blade and handle are very good looking but the roughness on the bottom of the handle is poor craftsmanship and the warped monkey tail is inexcusable. Obviously the "master" didn't check the work of his apprentices and this certainly takes his work down many notches in my estimation --and I have one on order thinking that Livi was the Ne on the Plus Ultra. Oh, oh, this may not be good.

Bruce
 
Joel,

I am appalled by the flaws. The blade and handle are very good looking but the roughness on the bottom of the handle is poor craftsmanship and the warped monkey tail is inexcusable. Obviously the "master" didn't check the work of his apprentices and this certainly takes his work down many notches in my estimation --and I have one on order thinking that Livi was the Ne on the Plus Ultra. Oh, oh, this may not be good.

Bruce

Bruce,
I wouldn't be too concerned. When you hold/use the one I have - it's still magnificent. For what it's worth though - I've had a Takeda "on order" for 8+ months - so you may never even see your razor :tongue:

For clarification - I do not believe the monkey tail is warped, but rather the hole to mount the razor to the scales was drilled improperly, at an angle. In any case - it certainly isn't impressive.

On the other hand though - Robert Williams makes some really exceptional custom razors, that I *personally* feel are about the best CUSTOM razor out there. Now - honestly, I think i'd rather have a TI LE Hammer than a Robert Williams - but as far as custom razors go - I think the RW's take honors at the top of the hill.

Stay tuned for a review of a RW Custom tonight!
 
Joel,

I think if the hole throught the handle were drilled at an angle, enough so that the monkey tail dragged on the inside face, the blade itself would close on the outside of the handle. Since the monkey tail is about 1/5 the length of the blade, the blade would show about 5 times the deflection of the smaller member. Warped or crooked, that issue is really moot in that no one at the "maestro's" shop checked it for function before they wrapped and shipped the razor, and that's where my problem arises.

Bruce
 
Joel,

I think if the hole throught the handle were drilled at an angle, enough so that the monkey tail dragged on the inside face, the blade itself would close on the outside of the handle. Since the monkey tail is about 1/5 the length of the blade, the blade would show about 5 times the deflection of the smaller member. Warped or crooked, that issue is really moot in that no one at the "maestro's" shop checked it for function before they wrapped and shipped the razor, and that's where my problem arises.

Bruce

Bruce,
Without question - I agree. Unfortunately though I am not the only one to feel this way, and I have received several PM's from individuals who have Maestro's that aren't really that "impressive" as well.... heck - even fellas who have fixed a few.

Again - don't get me wrong, they're nice, but they certainly aren't the holy grail - and my order for a takeda seems to have never gone thru... and I certainly am/will/have not been complaining. I'd rather spend the $ elsewhere.
 
Joel,

I've always been impressed with the appearance of the Livi razors, but after seeing the off-centered pin and the unsightly notch in the scale on your new razor, I would now be very reluctant to purchase one. On the other hand, Dr. Chris Moss has a Livi Damascus and speaks very highly about it; you don't appear to have been so lucky. For the price, these two defects would not be at all acceptable for me. I would return it to the Maestro and have the scales replaced.

I've never owned one of Robert Williams custom made razors, but I do have have one of his finely crafted restorations with custom made scales. Based on my experience and the high recommendations of others, I would purchase a Robert Williams custom long before spending the cash on a Livi.

Hal
 
A flawed Mastero Livi.:eek:
Is it me or is joel having some bad luck with str8s. First the Ivory dovo and now this too bad...
 
I'm not trying to defend Livi but I think that no matter how expensive something is or no matter the quality control in force bad apples are going to get through and that just reality, good or bad. I don't know how bad the overall problem is. I have one which is perfect and I've never seen any posts on SRP about bad ones. The important thing is that he makes it right. I don't think any product no matter the cost or exclusivity is going to be perfect 100% of the time. Thats just the way it is like it or not. I just got a williams razor the other day and it looks fine but I did notice the bevel at one point is very uneven,it doesn't effect the shaving, its just cosmetic so its not perfect either.
 
I think the issue is that such a custom takes a lot of effort, as well as time. When not perfect, the maker can either sell as is, or spend even more time to fix it (sometimes an entirely new handle, of blade treatment, etc. may be needed to fix the issues). I am not sure what the profit magins are, but they certainly drop if you do this, and then there's the lost time not used to make other razors.

So there it goes.

Cheers
Ivo
 
I'm willing to overlook minor cosmetic issues in exchange for perfection in the shaving department. I can't be the only one, else Thiers-Issard would have been out of business decades ago.
 
I'm willing to overlook minor cosmetic issues in exchange for perfection in the shaving department. I can't be the only one, else Thiers-Issard would have been out of business decades ago.

I am not as forgiving but great point on TI
 
I am not as forgiving but great point on TI

One thing to consider however.... a TI is "mass produced" (as far as straight razors go) and pound for pound are considerably less expensive than a Maestro. A Maestro is advertised as a "custom" and a much higer level of quality is to be expected on a razor that is created - from start to finish by one mans hands. TI is a factory - Maestro Livi is a man, however with that said - my dissatisfaction with TI's quality control has been long documented as well.

Again - the Maestro is a great razor - I enjoy it, and I'll never be parting with it, however at the same time I feel the fit, finish, and quality are highly over-rated, and while it is a superb shaver - I feel it is no superior to a good TI, RW, etc. Being that the price point on Maestro's is so high - I just personally feel there are better options available. PERSONALLY - I reach for my TI's, Japanese Razors, RW's and vintage steels before I reach for my Maestro and I enjoy using the aformentioned razor more. In fact.... I barely ever use my Maestro. I'd love to try a Takeda... but the price/quality ratio just doesn't mesh for me.

I've got 2 Bill Ellis Razors in the works, and i'll bet you all the tea in China both of them will arrive simply flawless. :biggrin:

YMMV
 

Doc4

Stumpy in cold weather
Staff member
I find this to be a very interesting debate. It all seems to boil down to the question of what are we actually paying for when we buy a razor? Are we paying for the shave, for the looks, or the uniqueness? (Or a combination of the three?)

Okay, we all want a great shave. A razor that is substandard steel and will never have a truly great edge is not worth our time. But if a razor has a fantastic blade for the edge ... can be honed and stropped to perfection and give mind-blowingly great shaves ... is that enough? Is it enough at $100? at $400? at $1200? And then, if you can get that for $100, is there any point in spending $1200 for the same shave, just with a prettier razor?

Okay, looks are important. No one here wants a razor with Barney the Dinosaur scales! Or a rusted old blade with cracked and tarnished scales. We want a drool-worth beauty with fantastic scales ... and we want quality construction. Let's face it, beyond getting the right balance for you razor (which can be done with the right plastic) the material in the scales does not help the actual shaving at all ... swap the $400 mammoth scales for $50 bakelite scales, and no change in the shave. Reading Joel's comments about the Livi and the DOVO (and the Wacker review a while ago) that seems to me to be where the main thrust of his complaints is going ... quality of workmanship ... or lack thereof.

Fair enough. But each one of us will have a different emphasis when it comes to the trade-off of edge and construction. One fellow wants a perfect cutting edge and who cares about looks, and another wants perfect construction or else the whole product is flawed regardless of the cutting edge. And so forth and so on, in various personal combinations.

And of course when we factor in price, we become more demanding of overall quality. If I'm paying that much, it better be frigging perfect!! Don't try to sell me a Rolls Royce with Plymoth Reliant construction standards!!

Which leads me to uniqueness. The DOVO mammoth is a factory-produced item, and Livi is one artisan. The 1884 Thiers Issard hammer forged razors are great blades, but TI can charge a premium (over and above what the intrinsic cutting ability and construction warrant) because they are what they are and there's ony 450 of them. When it comes to the unique, we will pay a premium to have something special, over and above what it's otherwise worth. The same goes, to a greater or lesser extent, for any hand-made items, even if they're not made by a famous artisan (who can also charge a premium for their name.)

The hand-made artisan stuff has a percieved advantage in quality, as well as a uniqueness that is also attractive. Factories are great at churning out a million of the same thing entirely identical, but the artisan makes one unique piece at a time. So where do we draw the line between 'artisinal uniqueness and character' and 'shoddy workmanship'? Everyone has his own line for that, and even if we can't agree where the line should be, we can agree that there ought to be a line!

Maybe the best way to find the line, is to compare one artisan to another. Someone else's violin probably sounds pretty fantastic ... until you hear the Strad! Price comes into it too ... both in comparing quality and in figuring out how much extra you are willing to pay for the special name. If TI has a bunch of other handforged razorblades lying around from 1884, forged by nobody anybody heard of , they can't sell them for nearly as much as the Pierre Thires ones, even if the blades turn out to be just as good.

So what ARE we paying for? A little bit of this and a little bit of that, with some trade-offs (this being an imperfect world) along the way. But I'm glad of the reviews and comment threads like this one, to help me make the best of the necessary trade-offs!
 
It really just is like everything else we like personal Luxury. If that was not the case we would all have 1 plain razor 1 plain car live in a plain house etc. To put another spin on this I own 2 Livi's and they are perfect and true works of art. I am plaining for the next 2 already. Each of the customs artist have their own personality. I also have 2 of Joe's and My 3rd of Roberts on the way. They all look and feel different. Livi's to me are more delicate, Roberts are Bruts and Joe's more of the Vintage flair. But I love them all. I know they all stand behind their work. I am sure Joel if you went back to Lynn he would take care of it. As well if you had a problem with Joe or Robert. These are all hand made so to me perfection is harder not easier. And they all make mistakes So I would not condemn any of them if yours is not perfect. Because I know they will stand behind them.
 
This is the first I have heard of any problem. The razor was purchased for $645.00 and was received in November of 2006. I tested this one and didn't recall any problems with it, but that was a long time and many razors ago.

You are right Don, I love all my custom razors. I can look hard and find some kind of not perfect in each of them, but they are all hand made and every one is of great value to me. They are all wonderful shavers and different from any mass manufactured razors that I have including the rarest of them.

Have fun and let's do the convention.

Lynn
 
This is the first I have heard of any problem. The razor was purchased for $645.00 and was received in November of 2006. I tested this one and didn't recall any problems with it, but that was a long time and many razors ago.

You are right Don, I love all my custom razors. I can look hard and find some kind of not perfect in each of them, but they are all hand made and every one is of great value to me. They are all wonderful shavers and different from any mass manufactured razors that I have including the rarest of them.

Have fun and let's do the convention.

Lynn

According to your site, as well as the Euro-dealers, the razor's current going rate = $850.

Even at $645, it's flawed, the pics don't lie.
 
Why pick a fight over this. Lynn didn't say there was no flaw...just that he doesn't remember one.

Anyway, review done, it was an interesting read. I still want a maestro someday.... (whistling "If I were a rich man")
 
LOL.....No fight intented. Because of the Euro rates and some early errors on pricing, I am probably going to remove all the pricing from my site and just indicate call for pricing. I contact the Maestro on every razor before quoting a price to anyone. This razor actually has not sold for more than $635. that I am aware of and the $645 actually included the postage. That being said, If there was a blemish when it was received in November, 06, I certainly would have liked to have known about it. I appreciate the nice comments regarding the shave though.

You guys have fun and Thanks!! Let's get ready to CONVENTION!!!!!!

Lynn
 
So you guys want perfection eh? If thats the case you had better move to a different century.

I think if you buy a product and its perfect no matter if its factory made or handmade your just plain lucky. The only real concern to me, is the "defect" a minor cosmetic thing or some major problem or something that will affect its performance and secondly will the maker correct the problem if it bothers us that much.

I think those that question prices on these "super razors" would probably never buy one anyway. You can't quantify the prices in practical terms. A guy driving a Honda Civic and who thinks its the best car in the world would never buy a Mercedes, its just not worth it to him.

Personally I have a maestro and it came perfect and shaved perfect out of the box. I recently got a Williams Razor. Its a wonderful razor too but it needed touch up honing to get it to shave to its potential. I also noticed the bevel on the razor is very uneven so I guess you can say it wasn't perfect. At its price point its still a fantastic bargin to me and its a very high quality razor, very different than the maestro so its hard to compare the two.

In the end buying one of these razors is a personal decision we all make. Shave quality is not one of the main concerns because that factor can be had for a fraction of the price.
 
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