Requesting individualized finishing stone advice

[Sipwell]

I'm relatively new to straight razor honing, but I have a pretty nice set of Japanese stones left by my late brother, who was a master finish carpenter. I've used them until now honing my Japanese chef knives. They are all Suehiro professional stones, mounted on wood bases: 1k, 3k, 6k, 10k. (It is strange to me that the snow white 6k stone is much harder and seems finer than the 10k. 6k gives mirror finish, but the 10k slurries easily and seems courser. )

I've had my first so-so shaves, but I'm just not there yet. This is probably as much due to my continuing improvement at honing as it is due to the stones. Regardless, I feel I need a finer finishing stone for the caliber of razor edge my high standards will eventually expect. After some reading, and in a moment of relative frugality, I ordered the Shapton 12k (cream in yellow plastic case). I was dismayed at the inconsistencies in the particle aggregate and the aggressive abrasion. It even seemed to leave visible scratch patterns in my blade. The response was nothing like the buttery feel of the Suehiros. Either the Shapton is a well-done counterfeit (Amazon), or this stone is just not for me (or I'm not doing it right.)

After re-thinking it, I want to send back the $75 Shapton and find another higher quality finisher, sticking with the Japanese stones and methods to honor my brother and his passion for the Japanese craftmanship. I'm looking at either the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k for $280, or possibly a full 3"x8"x1.6" jnat Ohira I found at a Japanese chef supply retailer for $255 described as ~10k-20k. (I would love to own and learn to finish with a jnat) Or some might say I'm better off with a dedicated jnat dealer?
I would appreciate some input from more experienced honers. Thanks for your time and help. Regards

 

[Aldwyn]

While I am new to JNATs, I am not to the Gokumyo 20K.

After much experimentation, I am not sure the 20K is worth it, to be honest. I think the 20K edge simply dosent last long, so might as well just go with the 12K or a JNat and save your money. (who am I kidding... if you dont buy the 20K, you will likely spend more on the JNats! heh!)

I havnt taken my 20K out of the container its in, in several years. Until I bought my JNats, I had been going to 12K and finishing with a Zulu Gray.

 

[stone and strop]

If you are using the stones for knives too you should be lapping them regularly to keep them flat.
The Suehiro's are very good stones and the 20k is a great finishing stone should you go synthetic and you can go from 8k to 20 with no problem.
I don't have any experience with Shaptons but the general consensus is that the Naniwa's give better results in the 12k range.
If you are confident in the Jnat Ohira and the claim of approx. grit then maybe that might be the way to go too. They offer a little more range than a synthetic stone.

 

[Sipwell]

Thanks for the input so far. I can't see a good reason not to look for a Jnat if prices are similar. The downside I guess is a more difficult shopping process and greater variability.

 

[stone and strop]

Jnats are not so hard to figure out.
Keep it simple. Don't use any nagura at first. Try with just water on the stone after dressing it to a fine grit as a finisher. If the shave is sharp but not overly smooth then try a diamond nagura slurry and thin it out to near clear water again in stages.
Only a couple passes on clear water.
Experiment, but that's it in a nutshell. You can further experiment with Tomo's after you have established the integrity of the host stone.
Knowing what you have to start with is imperative.
You can compliment it with naguras afterward.

 

[Sipwell]

Jnats are not so hard to figure out.
Keep it simple. Don't use any nagura at first. Try with just water on the stone after dressing it to a fine grit as a finisher. If the shave is sharp but not overly smooth then try a diamond nagura slurry and thin it out to near clear water again in stages.
Only a couple passes on clear water.
Experiment, but that's it in a nutshell. You can further experiment with Tomo's after you have established the integrity of the host stone.
Knowing what you have to start with is imperative.
You can compliment it with naguras afterward.

Cool, thanks for the Jnat suggestions.

 

[MasterOfPups]

You may already know this, but you should make sure your stones are lapped perfectly flat, and paint the edge of your razor with a sharpie to make sure it is making full contact. A wavy stone or a slight bend in the blade can prevent a good edge even if you are doing everything else right.

 

[alx gilmore]

Where do you live, maybe there is a member here that will give you some hands on advice.

Alx

 

[Sipwell]

Where do you live, maybe there is a member here that will give you some hands on advice.

Alx

I'm in Denver, CO.

 

[Sipwell]

You may already know this, but you should make sure your stones are lapped perfectly flat, and paint the edge of your razor with a sharpie to make sure it is making full contact. A wavy stone or a slight bend in the blade can prevent a good edge even if you are doing everything else right.

Yes, I've been in the habit of prepping with nagura stone using a cross hatch pattern and as needed during honing, but only recently starting using pencil marks, as others have suggested. My understanding is dmt plates aren't always as appropriate for some stones as the very hard diamond particles stay in the stone and affect cutting behaviour. I have been examining scratch marks, but I like the sharpie suggestion. I'll try that.

 

[Adonay]

My 1%, if you go to jnat , IMHO I suggest you buy a jnat from a store specialized in razor items, they can help you much better and avoid unpleasant surprises. A beautiful stone is not always good for a razor.

 

[alex1921]

Making statements like this usually gets me in trouble but I have to say it. If the Ohira is coming from a Japanese chef supply store, I would bet it's a knife stone and thus not the best to finish razors. Also when somebody describes naturals with a grit rating, my BS radar goes off.
That said people shave off all kind of stones. Not everything sold out there is a solid finisher.
If you are buying a jnat for razor honing and specially for razor finishing, not midrange, then buy from a place that knows/hones razors because then you know the stone should be good.

 

[Sipwell]

Making statements like this usually gets me in trouble but I have to say it. If the Ohira is coming from a Japanese chef supply store, I would bet it's a knife stone and thus not the best to finish razors. Also when somebody describes naturals with a grit rating, my BS radar goes off.
That said people shave off all kind of stones. Not everything sold out there is a solid finisher.
If you are buying a jnat for razor honing and specially for razor finishing, not midrange, then buy from a place that knows/hones razors because then you know the stone should be good.

Maybe the wider versatility of naturals, depending on how they're used, explains why knife stores sometimes carry them as finishers. (The Ohira seems to commonly be Lv4 or so.) However, the advice is reasonable. Based on feedback here, and the fact that I just don't know enough yet, I think I will order from one of the natural Japanese stone specialists who can give a tailored recommendation and ship a tested and very accurately described product. Maybe some day I'll have enough expertise to spot a good stone from eBay or the random Japanese chef supply store.

 

[alex1921]

That's the safest way to go. Buy a tested stone. Plenty of sellers out there selling razor finisher that also shave with a SR even though lately I have seen some weird stuff as well.

 

[Srdjan]

Alex1921 has a very large collection of jnats. If I were you, I would try to get one from him, for your razors @Sipwell. I'm 100% sure it will be a great stone, fairly priced.

 

[macintoshBR]

Naniwa 12K Super Stone. It answers your question without entering the JNAT rabbit hole.

You may even skip your 10K on your progression. Make sure you strop your razor on clean leather for a good 25-35 laps after honing.

Use sandpaper on a granite counter top or a DMT or Atoma (if you want to stay all Japanese) plates to lap all your stones using the pencil marks technique.

Happy shaves

 

[kelbro]

If your shaves have only been so-so, a finer stone (of any kind) is not going to help. Your bevel may not be completely set. If not, you are just polishing a sub-standard edge. You can get a very good edge from a 10k. Much better than so-so.

 

[Sipwell]

If your shaves have only been so-so, a finer stone (of any kind) is not going to help. Your bevel may not be completely set. If not, you are just polishing a sub-standard edge. You can get a very good edge from a 10k. Much better than so-so.

I would agree with that. I actually wasn't sure exactly how good of an edge I should expect at 10k, since most everyone is talking about their finishers and chasing the ultimate edge, but I will see if I can get a great edge from the 10k while I take my time selecting a natural stone. I have been practicing on etsy/ebay vintage buys (have a third on the way), but I am reviewing each part of my process for improvement and I have an Atoma ordered for better lapping. I will be practicing more from 1k bevel setting and up. Thanks again for the input.