Removing a knot without damaging it(or the handle)

[catherix]

how about alcohol? its bad for rubber and plastic but your's looks like its neither..
I remember reading somewhere that alcohol would melt the epoxy..
high alcohol content cologne is what I rmbr..

Alcohol huh? Wonder if rubbing alcohol would work? So do you just pour it in the base of the knot and let it sit? Do you think it would damage the knot at all?

I've taken out a few knots this way on cheaper brushes, but just a warning, the graphics/text/stickers usually dont make it through the process.

1. Get some water boiling in a pot.
2. Turn the heat down as low as you can.
3. Place a glass dish in the center of the pot.
4. Place the brush inside the glass dish.
5. Put the top on and let it steam for about 15-20 minutes.
6. Remove the brush (with a pot holder or towel, it'll be hot), then pull and twist and the knot should come right out.


Your kitchen will stink afterwards but the knot should come out cleanly.

That's more or less what I tried last night to no avail. It seems like it should work but it definitely didn't. I didn't go for a full blown boil but rather brought it to a boil then turned off the heat, let it sit for a minute, then popped on the top. Kitchen didn't stink though, which is good.
I wonder if giving this a try everyday for awhile would eventually do it.

 

[NexlevMM]

I think its gonna take more than a minute if you decide to steam it.

 

[catherix]

I think its gonna take more than a minute if you decide to steam it.

Oh no, I let the pot/water cool for a minute before putting on the lid. Then it sit at increments of about 15 minutes before taking the brush out and giving the knot a twist. But, no cigar.

 

[GDCarrington]

It sounds, from the steam treatments that I have done in the past, that they used an epoxy instead of glue. That is why it is hard to get it to move/adjust under low duration (15 minute) steam treatments.

Glue will break down under low duration heat treatments where good epoxy will require a high duration treatment to expand the handle to make the hole bigger. The knot and the handle being dissimilar materials, they will expand at different rates and allow a removal.

Daily low duration steam treatments may never get enough overall expansion to achieve separation, but you won't know until it is tried.

Higher duration steam treatments will have an negative effect on the hairs and can even ruin synthetic fibers as some members around here can attest.

Good fortune.

 

[catherix]

It sounds, from the steam treatments that I have done in the past, that they used an epoxy instead of glue. That is why it is hard to get it to move/adjust under low duration (15 minute) steam treatments.

Glue will break down under low duration heat treatments where good epoxy will require a high duration treatment to expand the handle to make the hole bigger. The knot and the handle being dissimilar materials, they will expand at different rates and allow a removal.

Daily low duration steam treatments may never get enough overall expansion to achieve separation, but you won't know until it is tried.

Higher duration steam treatments will have an negative effect on the hairs and can even ruin synthetic fibers as some members around here can attest.

Good fortune.

Thanks for the info Gary! Hope you're doing well my friend.

I think I'll give shorter duration treatments a go for a few days and see if I can get the darn thing loose. If not I think destroying the handle is my only option.

 

[OldSaw]

Here's a suggestion. Tie the knot as close to the base as you can. Then cut it off with a sharp blade. Remove the base from the handle and reset the newly tied knot. I'm sure this would work best with a lathe if you have access to one.

 

[catherix]

Here's a suggestion. Tie the know as close to the base as you can. Then cut it off with a sharp blade. Remove the base from the handle and reset the newly tied knot. I'm sure this would work best with a lathe if you have access to one.

That hasn't crossed my mind but I think it could work. I guess I would need to keep the hairs all level so I don't ruin the shape of the knot. At a 56 mm loft I could still set it fairly easily I suppose. I just have no idea what I would plug the bottom of the newly created knot after its been cutoff. Or does it need a "plug" of sorts to hold it all together? I think the only knots I've seen out of a handle are TGN knots, and they have a little wax (maybe wax) plug at their base.

 

[OldSaw]

That hasn't crossed my mind but I think it could work. I guess I would need to keep the hairs all level so I don't ruin the shape of the knot. At a 56 mm loft I could still set it fairly easily I suppose. I just have no idea what I would plug the bottom of the newly created knot after its been cutoff. Or does it need a "plug" of sorts to hold it all together? I think the only knots I've seen out of a handle are TGN knots, and they have a little wax (maybe wax) plug at their base.

I doubt that it is wax. Anyway, I have never done this, but I work at a machine shop (I'm not a machinist though, work in the office) and it just seemed like a natural solution. Check out some of the videos on brush making. I recall seeing pics and/or video of Simpson brushes being made and they looked like they were simply tied off and epoxied into the handle.

 

[GDCarrington]

The knot for TGN and others similar makes are set in an epoxy.

 

[catherix]

I doubt that it is wax. Anyway, I have never done this, but I work at a machine shop (I'm not a machinist though, work in the office) and it just seemed like a natural solution. Check out some of the videos on brush making. I recall seeing pics and/or video of Simpson brushes being made and they looked like they were simply tied off and epoxied into the handle.

Watched a couple videos(there's not much out there on the topic) and I can definitely see what your talking about. Looks like all the hairs are the same length and then they're shaped into the bulb shape. It would really suck to drop the knot after cutting it out because I would have no way to get it back into shape considering that all the hairs would be different lengths. A little bit of a concern. But if tied off tightly and then cut CLEANLY I could see this really working. Gonna have to mull it over a bit.

The knot for TGN and others similar makes are set in an epoxy.

That makes sense. I remember that the plug looked a lot like wax but was much harder than wax. Wonder how they get those nice little cylinder shapes without the epoxy sticking to whatever they are using to create the shape?

Gents, I really appreciate all the input on this one. It'll be a day or two before I'll be able to get back on this project but I'll keep you posted when I do. If I can find a way to get this sucker transplanted at a new loft without ruining anything I'll be stoked!

 

[Omak]

When the knot is set deeper it will probably feel scritchier, good project and trials but it may be easier/better to leave the brush and make a new one.

 

[melyus]

I've taken out a few knots this way on cheaper brushes, but just a warning, the graphics/text/stickers usually dont make it through the process.

1. Get some water boiling in a pot.
2. Turn the heat down as low as you can.
3. Place a glass dish in the center of the pot.
4. Place the brush inside the glass dish.
5. Put the top on and let it steam for about 15-20 minutes.
6. Remove the brush (with a pot holder or towel, it'll be hot), then pull and twist and the knot should come right out.


Your kitchen will stink afterwards but the knot should come out cleanly.

Exactly what im doing with my restorations.. i did 20+ re-knot with this steam method..

 

[catherix]

When the knot is set deeper it will probably feel scritchier, good project and trials but it may be easier/better to leave the brush and make a new one.

I bet that it will and I think I would be okay with that. But I don't plan to give up on it! No sirrrreee! If I can't get the knot out without using any extreme heat or force I'm going to destroy the handle and plant the sucker in something else.

No matter what, it's gonna be a fun and interesting project.

 

[catherix]

Just as a follow up, please see this thread.

Some pics for reference:
Before it looked like this

And now it looks like this

 

[mblakele]

Glad to hear it. So a bubble in the epoxy caused it to fail when you tugged on the knot? And maybe some of the previous treatments helped weaken it.

Too bad it was something of an accident, though. When I saw the photos I hoped you had found a method that would work reliably with any brush.

 

[catherix]

Glad to hear it. So a bubble in the epoxy caused it to fail when you tugged on the knot? And maybe some of the previous treatments helped weaken it.

Too bad it was something of an accident, though. When I saw the photos I hoped you had found a method that would work reliably with any brush.

I'm guessing its a combination of the bubble and the steam. I was keeping it in the shower on the shelf where its dry but would be subjected to steam. Did this for a couple months. Then I just used it every now and again. But my guess is that without that bubble in the epoxy I woulda been done for. Can't say with full confidence that anything I did to it really made a dent but I will say that I did not tug very hard on it when it cracked the first time. Not nearly as hard as I had before. That thing was in there good.