Removing a knot without damaging it(or the handle)

[catherix]

Alright guys, here's the situation. I've got an AoS Fine badger which was my first real brush, that has a ridiculous loft on it. It needs to set much lower because at the moment it has absolutely no backbone. It's a pretty good knot and I spent $150 on the kit that it came in. I'd love to get that knot out of there with out ruining it or ruining the handle.
What I'd like to do: Remove the knot without damaging it at all. Take the handle and drill it out to lower the loft and possibly add some additional weight as well. Rest the knot with a loft about 8-10mm lower.

Is this even possible? Or am I just crazy?

 

[catherix]

I suppose a couple pictures are always helpful:

If my memory isn't failing me, I think it's set 23/56 right now. The knots not very dense(its nothing like my Duke 2) and floppy as all get out. I'm a face latherer and I want a brush with some oomph! I like the knot though and it's pretty soft on the face.

Let me know what y'all think. Got my fingers crossed.

 

[Loric]

To the best of my knowledge you are going to have to cut the handle to get the knot out. I have taken several out with a hack saw, but its always a crap shoot where the knot starts. If you cut the bottom of the knot, it could destroy that too.

 

[Jim]

You could try heating the handle in very hot water which may allow the glue to soften enough to remove it.

 

[catherix]

To the best of my knowledge you are going to have to cut the handle to get the knot out. I have taken several out with a hack saw, but its always a crap shoot where the knot starts. If you cut the bottom of the knot, it could destroy that too.

Both if the things you mentioned are exactly what I'm worried about. Hmmm... What to do, what to do?

 

[catherix]

You could try heating the handle in very hot water which may allow the glue to soften enough to remove it.

Thanks Jim! That's kinda what I was hoping someone would say. I guess my question is: Does epoxy(or whatever is used to glue it in there) going to actually soften up a bit with enough heat?

 

[Jim]

Thanks Jim! That's kinda what I was hoping someone would say. I guess my question is: Does epoxy(or whatever is used to glue it in there) going to actually soften up a bit with enough heat?

All I can say is it might.

 

[catherix]

All I can say is it might.

Well I think it's worth a try. Even if I ruin the handle but get the knot out I'll be happy.

Double boiler method? That's kinda what I was thinking.

 

[Jim]

Well I think it's worth a try. Even if I ruin the handle but get the knot out I'll be happy.

Double boiler method? That's kinda what I was thinking.

I would go slowly, perhaps a coffee cup with 170 degree water to start, then increase the temps incrementally.

 

[GDCarrington]

Tyler,

Some of the knots are held in with strong glue (hopefully) and others with epoxy.

If it is glue, this may work.

You might want to try to shield the hairs with a rubber band and then some masking tape.

Take a small flat head metal screwdriver and hold it in some very hot water to build up heat and then work with the heated but cooling screwdriver to work around the knot and the handle to try to create separation. If you can get separation, you may be able to sink the brush in hot water briefly then quickly remove it and try to gently pull the knot from the handle.

If it is epoxy then ...

If the knot is more important, sacrifice the handle or vice versa.

Good fortune.

 

[catherix]

Thanks for the help guys. In gonna start with what Jim mentioned, hot water in a small glass standing on the handle. I'll let it soak for a bit and add some hotter water as I go. Got it started, we'll see how it goes.

 

[shaverjoe]

Tyler-

A friend of mine had an AoS brush very similar to yours in which the knot simply fell out. He used it in the shower exclusively. The knot had some type of metal ring near its base and was set extremely shallow in the handle. I would take Jim's advice and try to heat the handle but go slow with with increments and allow the brush to soak for longer periods of time as the water cools. I wish I had taken pictures of the knot base- it was very narrow and had minimal glue as a plug with the metal ring- this was just one example and my only experience with an AoS knot/brush.

Here is the restore

 

[mblakele]

Would it be better to use water or steam? Here is what I posted in a recent thread along these same lines, in case it is useful.

As far as I know there are only two ways to get a knot out of a finished brush: mechanical force or steam. Either one has risks for the handle and knot.

Obviously drilling the knot out is unthinkable here. If the knot is at all loose in the handle, the glue could fail and release the knot. Otherwise you are looking at breaking the handle apart, with some risk to the knot also. I believe Rudy Vey has successfully done this once or twice, salvaging the knot but destroying the original handle.

The steam method will probably leave the handle intact as long as it is solid acrylic. But beware of plaster filling or older plastics: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/289319-Win-Some-and-Lose-Some-Restoration-Story. Also I worry about steam affecting the knot. We have some evidence that steam is bad for synthetic knots: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Muhle-Silvertip-Fibre-knot-(maybe-a-warning), and the steam method is usually used when replacing a knot.

I have only steamed one brush myself, and it had a boar knot. The process ruined the handle by expanding a couple of pre-existing cracks, so watch out for that. The boar knot was a shedder, so it was a lost cause anyway.

 

[catherix]

Joe - Thanks for the example! Man I could only be so lucky to have this knot fall out! Maybe I should send my brush to your friend for awhile! I'll be sure to post some pics of the knot once I get it out. Hopefully soon...

mblakele - I think I've read that post before. I'm gonna ramp up the year slowly but surely. I'm already at "near boiling" water. I should probably slow it down a bit.

One more question: I've got the brush sitting on the base of the handle in a short glass with the water just above the handle. The bristles are a couple millimeters under water. Is it safe to continue in this manner? Or should I move to a double boiler method once I get up to boiling water?

 

[Jim]

I would try to keep the water off the hair if you can. Have you tried giving it a twist yet?

 

[catherix]

I would try to keep the water off the hair if you can. Have you tried giving it a twist yet?

Had a feeling you'd say that. I'm gonna keep the water off the knot from here on out.

I've been giving it a pull and a twist at each increment. Nothing yet but I could feel it moving a bit. I have high hopes!

 

[catherix]

No luck getting the knot out yet. I've moved to steaming the brush without the heat on the pan. Just brought it to a boil and turned of the heat, then steam away.

Serached for a picture of the knot and there's nothing out there. Can't believe someone hasn't snapped a pic of the knot before. I guess it's up to me!
A lot of our SOTD pics are all over google images. Kinda funny seeing them

 

[catherix]

Well this was the last step I took:

ANNNND.... The knot is still in the handle

I stopped messing around when I noticed the knot was letting off just a tiny bit of steam. Got worried a bit. Well I've spent a couple hours trying to get it out using heat/steam. I think I've got two options at this point: try Gary's method with the screwdriver or destroy the handle. Man I really wanted to stick the knot back in the handle in the end. Like a custom AoS modified brush of sorts; thought that would be neat.

I probably tried 10 times to pull the knot out. Pulled straight, pulled and twisted, pulled while rocking the knot back and forth. Nothing. I thought I had made a bit of progress but it's in there really well. Probably lost half a dozen hairs in the process too, which wasn't too bad.

If y'all have any other ideas that I could try let me know. I'm done for today but open for anything for attempt 2.

 

[vreddy2000]

how about alcohol? its bad for rubber and plastic but your's looks like its neither..
I remember reading somewhere that alcohol would melt the epoxy..
high alcohol content cologne is what I rmbr..

 

[mekler]

I've taken out a few knots this way on cheaper brushes, but just a warning, the graphics/text/stickers usually dont make it through the process.

1. Get some water boiling in a pot.
2. Turn the heat down as low as you can.
3. Place a glass dish in the center of the pot.
4. Place the brush inside the glass dish.
5. Put the top on and let it steam for about 15-20 minutes.
6. Remove the brush (with a pot holder or towel, it'll be hot), then pull and twist and the knot should come right out.


Your kitchen will stink afterwards but the knot should come out cleanly.