has anyone tried to hone these straight razors? they are going real cheap on the bay and seems like a good way to practice honing
red deer straight
- Thread starter admvalentine
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Im interested in finding a cheap practice razor for honing my self if anyone chimes in on this just got a waterstone and would need to finish on film so Lets make this a long winded bump.
The Red Deer is not a straight razor. A straight razor has specific geometry that defines a bevel. Essentially a 1-4 relationship between the width of the razor to the width of the spine. The red deer has no spine. It is a letter or box opener at best.
I would recommend the Gold Dollar, but the two I have tried, one a 208 and the other a 300 both had issues that required a Dremel and a buffer.
I would recommend the Gold Dollar, but the two I have tried, one a 208 and the other a 300 both had issues that required a Dremel and a buffer.
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I'm guessing your no longer looking for a Straight Razor but I purchased a couple Red Deer and can tell you they are not bad at all. Keep in mind, the handles on the ones I bought are very cheap and fully expect I'll have to repair or replace it within a couple years. One had a few flaws on the face and shank but other than that it was good, no problem with the blade. The other one was almost shave ready out of the box, had to strop it for a bit but was a great shave after I got done. For an inexpensive razor they do very well. I have two of these, three Gold Dollar and two or three really cheap Todd Sweeney razors. I have tried to sharpen the Todd Sweeney razors and got them as sharp as any knife and close to being able to shave with them but not good enough. I've heard it said, Straight Razors start where a knife stops and so far I have found this to be very true. Just from the two Red Deer Straight Razors I bought I would say the quality control is not great but at the price (less then twenty dollars/maybe less depending) one can't complain.
Hey Cy! Say did you put the hones on the surgical steel one or the 1095 carbon steel? Which honing progression did you use and how did you finish? Picked up an inexpensive 1095 carbon on Amazon out of curiosity before I got wind of this forum and I’m up for the challenge!
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
1095 is a perfectly adequate steel for razors but if it is poorly heat treated and tempered, it won't behave like razor steel should. If you paid less than $100, be prepared for a possible letdown. "Surgical steel" could mean many different things. For a quality razor, go with a quality brand. Off brands will mostly fail to satisfy in the way a nice vintage razor can. There are a few exceptions... very few.
Honestly, if you want to go ultra cheap, there is little reason to look beyond the Gold Dollar 66 at $4 or thereabouts. It just takes a bit of work to fine tune it to "good razor" standards or even to hone it as is, properly. However for another $10 or $20 you can get a Gold Dollar W60 that is much easier to hone and is a very nimble and efficient shaver. I believe Fendrihan sells them "shave ready" which I am guessing means that they will sorta shave okay out of the box but have room for improvement. Then there is a middle of the road model that is quite popular, the 1996, also a Gold Dollar, and it has the fat bevel angle of the classic models, which is a mark against them, but is more refined and pretty much ready to hit the hones without any grinding or rubbing on ultracoarse media to beat it into submission. All of these razors have satisfied users, though a raw 66 will probably end up discouraging most beginners. The steel is good. The grinding is awful. The scales suck but scales are not important.
Cy, I am guessing that you are fairly new to straight razors. Have you shaved with a shave ready vintage razor prepared by a reputable (known to this forum) honer yet? I suspect that the difference will be an epiphany for you.
I thought before I hit "post reply" I would have a look at a couple of Red Deer offerings on fleabay. The first warning bells sound at their mentioning "handles" on the razors. A straight razor has no handle. A handle is an extension by which an object is held in hand and/or manipulated. A razor has no handle. It has scales, which look, to someone who knows nothing of razors, like a handle. However, you do not hold the razor by the scales, and so they are not a handle at all. They are just scales. Their only function is to protect the razor's edge when it is not in use. When a seller says "handle", it is painfully obvious the depth (or lack thereof) of their expertise.
The razor looks like a quarter to half hollow, with a very thin spine thickness. They do not show the blade end-on so I can't say for sure. Photo is photoshopped, too. Usually a bad sign. The too-thin spine will of course result in a too-acute bevel angle. I could be wrong about spine thickness. As I related, it is hard to see just what you are getting from the pic. Anybody with one of these should try to post a very clear and well lit and properly focused end-on pic. The price is reasonable if the steel is of a good alloy and properly heat treated and properly tempered by a knowledgeable person. Otherwise of course it is garbage. I am assuming this is made in China, and wages are low there. Gold Dollar manages to HT their razors adequately, and so I will not assume out of hand that the steel sucks, but it might. I saw no country of origin listed. Shipping from the two ads I saw was Indiana and Illinois. Very likely it is a hot item on Ali Baba, notorious for shoddy products. If it is made in Pakistan I would not expect it to be of any practical level of quality. So what I am saying is that until you have some considerable experience with decent razors honed by knowledgeable honers, I would not tout these too heavily.
For honing practice, I suggest picking up a couple of under $20 vintage razors on ebay. You will be more likely to have something that can simply be honed and made to shave decently. You may even get lucky and get a really great razor but you are unlikely to get a lemon if it has no cracks, warp, or heavy rust or pitting, and has not been honed into a misshapen parody of a razor. Vintage mass produced American razors are particularly common and cheap, and the quality is quite good. You may find some as low as $10 or so, though they are starting to get a bit of a cult following and this is often reflected in prices.
Honestly, if you want to go ultra cheap, there is little reason to look beyond the Gold Dollar 66 at $4 or thereabouts. It just takes a bit of work to fine tune it to "good razor" standards or even to hone it as is, properly. However for another $10 or $20 you can get a Gold Dollar W60 that is much easier to hone and is a very nimble and efficient shaver. I believe Fendrihan sells them "shave ready" which I am guessing means that they will sorta shave okay out of the box but have room for improvement. Then there is a middle of the road model that is quite popular, the 1996, also a Gold Dollar, and it has the fat bevel angle of the classic models, which is a mark against them, but is more refined and pretty much ready to hit the hones without any grinding or rubbing on ultracoarse media to beat it into submission. All of these razors have satisfied users, though a raw 66 will probably end up discouraging most beginners. The steel is good. The grinding is awful. The scales suck but scales are not important.
Cy, I am guessing that you are fairly new to straight razors. Have you shaved with a shave ready vintage razor prepared by a reputable (known to this forum) honer yet? I suspect that the difference will be an epiphany for you.
I thought before I hit "post reply" I would have a look at a couple of Red Deer offerings on fleabay. The first warning bells sound at their mentioning "handles" on the razors. A straight razor has no handle. A handle is an extension by which an object is held in hand and/or manipulated. A razor has no handle. It has scales, which look, to someone who knows nothing of razors, like a handle. However, you do not hold the razor by the scales, and so they are not a handle at all. They are just scales. Their only function is to protect the razor's edge when it is not in use. When a seller says "handle", it is painfully obvious the depth (or lack thereof) of their expertise.
The razor looks like a quarter to half hollow, with a very thin spine thickness. They do not show the blade end-on so I can't say for sure. Photo is photoshopped, too. Usually a bad sign. The too-thin spine will of course result in a too-acute bevel angle. I could be wrong about spine thickness. As I related, it is hard to see just what you are getting from the pic. Anybody with one of these should try to post a very clear and well lit and properly focused end-on pic. The price is reasonable if the steel is of a good alloy and properly heat treated and properly tempered by a knowledgeable person. Otherwise of course it is garbage. I am assuming this is made in China, and wages are low there. Gold Dollar manages to HT their razors adequately, and so I will not assume out of hand that the steel sucks, but it might. I saw no country of origin listed. Shipping from the two ads I saw was Indiana and Illinois. Very likely it is a hot item on Ali Baba, notorious for shoddy products. If it is made in Pakistan I would not expect it to be of any practical level of quality. So what I am saying is that until you have some considerable experience with decent razors honed by knowledgeable honers, I would not tout these too heavily.
For honing practice, I suggest picking up a couple of under $20 vintage razors on ebay. You will be more likely to have something that can simply be honed and made to shave decently. You may even get lucky and get a really great razor but you are unlikely to get a lemon if it has no cracks, warp, or heavy rust or pitting, and has not been honed into a misshapen parody of a razor. Vintage mass produced American razors are particularly common and cheap, and the quality is quite good. You may find some as low as $10 or so, though they are starting to get a bit of a cult following and this is often reflected in prices.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Ah I remember now. There was a thread regarding this razor and I seem to recall that it is indeed made in Pakistan. I will therefore state with reasonable certainty that it is junk. It can be made to shave in the same manner that a cheap kitchen knife can be made to shave. It will never shave like a proper razor. By that, I mean it will never give you a SAS or better (socially acceptable shave) with one pass or BBS with three passes, without any irritation or cuts, and still be sharp enough for another dozen shaves. You are far better off with a shave ready vintage razor. If you insist on honing your own, do yourself a favor and read carefully all the linked threads in the Newbie Honing Compendium. Especially this one:
(1) How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade
Read to the end of all those threads because often the first few posts relate to initial efforts and findings, and the process is more refined or there is more data or more success stories as the thread goes on. The Method will NOT work on Pakistani steel. It is simply junk steel and nothing to make fine cutlery out of.
(1) How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade
Read to the end of all those threads because often the first few posts relate to initial efforts and findings, and the process is more refined or there is more data or more success stories as the thread goes on. The Method will NOT work on Pakistani steel. It is simply junk steel and nothing to make fine cutlery out of.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I admit I am not going into this without preconceived expectations, but I decided to take one for the team and hopefully save some newbs from spending their hard earned cash and wasting time learning to hone an unhoneable RSO. I pulled the trigger on one and it is due to arrive tomorrow evening. The next day, no matter how impossible it looks, I will make a genuine attempt to hone it and shave. I am saving up a good faceful of whiskers for it. TBH I am pretty sure it is garbage but when I am finished I will KNOW that it is, or isn't. And so will everyone else interested enough to read this thread or do a search for "red deer razor" before buying. Sometimes somebody just has to do something. People who do not have a clue about what they are selling, shouldn't be selling it. People who know that they are selling junk, should not be selling anything at all. And buyers need to be researching their purchases before hitting the "BUY" button.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I got it yesterday. I am honing some GD66's over the next couple days. I will give the Red Deer a go. Initial impressions are pretty meh, though. PAKISTAN printed on a label stuck to the scales. No stamping on the tang. No wedge. VERY thin spine. Haven't taken measurements yet but looks like a natural bevel angle of about 14 degrees to my eyeball, maybe less. Half hollow, no belly. If it were known good steel properly heat treated and tempered, I would say sure, it can be honed, though possibly tape might be required on the thin spine to elevate it where it belongs. Pics before and after honing.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Tried shaving with it yesterday even though I was not happy with the edge I put on it. It was torment. My microscope is out in the shop and it is too cold to go out there with no shirt on. I finished the shave with one of my Bismarcks. Today I finished the batch of Gold Dollars I had been wanting to hone up for sale at the flea market one of these days and I hit the balsa again with the Red Deer even though my .1u balsa is kinda bumpy and needs a good lapping. This time the shave was not excruciating, just meh. Uninspired. To be fair, the GDs need some more work, too, and I am blaming the balsa. I left the rollup door open when I had the Cajun Cooker out on the patio to boil crabs, and I had to put one balsa strop out of its misery altogether. The .1u isn't all that great, has some big dents and divots in it. I had another one but I repasted it with .5u. I have more balsa and acrylic so I should probably make up a whole new set.
Anyway, the razor is a bit more than just a RSO. Not up to Gold Dollar quality, but apparently usable. I will try another shave tomorrow, without benefit of the usual balsa treatment post shave, just leather stropping. This razor could stand some more trial and experimentation. It may be that it is okay. I will say this, though. In relation to the GD66 this Red Deer is an easy razor to hone. The only thing is, you must remember that the bevel angle is very acute. Enough to make the edge very flexible and delicate. So, extremely light pressure must be used. Some pressure bias toward the edge would not be a bad thing to help the edge catch up with the spine. I would not tape the spine as it is not so bad that it can't take a shave worthy edge. Plus I use balsa, and I don't want to use tape on the balsa.
This could be a decent razor for honing practice. Or stropping practice, if you keep or make the razor very dull. It is a bit light and it has the typical Pakistani cheap feel to it. Lack of stabilizer could be a disadvantage with so flimsy a razor, but it does make honing easier than it otherwise would be.
Honing with normal pressure will not work with this razor. It is just too flexxy. Once the bevel is set, pressure needs to be pretty light. I had a bit of a wire edge at one point on the 9u film. I went back to the 30u with dish soap and alternated between regular laps and pull strokes for a few minutes, then started fresh with the 9u and kept pressure dead light as I hit the 3u and 1u. I was tempted to go a few finish laps with tape to make a compound bevel but now I am glad I didn't.
No thumb up from me, at least not yet. But I am not ready to down-thumb it yet, either. Once I have it dialed in, IF I get it dialed in, I may do a passaround with it, to let the accomplished honers have a time at it and render their verdicts so we can have a conclusive consensus.
Anyway, the razor is a bit more than just a RSO. Not up to Gold Dollar quality, but apparently usable. I will try another shave tomorrow, without benefit of the usual balsa treatment post shave, just leather stropping. This razor could stand some more trial and experimentation. It may be that it is okay. I will say this, though. In relation to the GD66 this Red Deer is an easy razor to hone. The only thing is, you must remember that the bevel angle is very acute. Enough to make the edge very flexible and delicate. So, extremely light pressure must be used. Some pressure bias toward the edge would not be a bad thing to help the edge catch up with the spine. I would not tape the spine as it is not so bad that it can't take a shave worthy edge. Plus I use balsa, and I don't want to use tape on the balsa.
This could be a decent razor for honing practice. Or stropping practice, if you keep or make the razor very dull. It is a bit light and it has the typical Pakistani cheap feel to it. Lack of stabilizer could be a disadvantage with so flimsy a razor, but it does make honing easier than it otherwise would be.
Honing with normal pressure will not work with this razor. It is just too flexxy. Once the bevel is set, pressure needs to be pretty light. I had a bit of a wire edge at one point on the 9u film. I went back to the 30u with dish soap and alternated between regular laps and pull strokes for a few minutes, then started fresh with the 9u and kept pressure dead light as I hit the 3u and 1u. I was tempted to go a few finish laps with tape to make a compound bevel but now I am glad I didn't.
No thumb up from me, at least not yet. But I am not ready to down-thumb it yet, either. Once I have it dialed in, IF I get it dialed in, I may do a passaround with it, to let the accomplished honers have a time at it and render their verdicts so we can have a conclusive consensus.
As always, great info. Thanks for taking one for the team.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I hit the balsa again the other day, and just now shaved with it. I must admit, it did shave fairly well. A single pass gave me mostly DFS, some SAS, and even bits of BBS here and there. Kinda spotty, and it would benefit with a second pass. It was far from the most comfortable shave I have ever had, but wasn't bad. No AS burn at all. I managed to go ATG under the jaw, which is my usual method with a shavette or a straight with a good Method edge. I still have not looked at this under the microscope... been way too busy. I suspect that there might be a little bit of apex crumbling going on, on a very very small scale. Looks okay under a magnifying glass in bright light.
This razor demands a VERY light touch on the honing, due to the very acute bevel angle. For those who do not rock the balsa but instead shave straight off a 12k or a Jnat or film, a single layer of tape might be just the thing when honing.
I still would recommend a decent American vintage razor over this, for a newbie on a budget who wants to hone his own. It would be too easy to mess this dainty little thing up. For someone who wants to buy/hone/sell them as shave ready, I give it half a thumb up. That could change over the next few shaves. I like that it has no stabilizer. I can hone it while watching youtubes and stuff.
I would like to know exactly what steel this is. So far I don't see as much as a water spot so I am wondering if it is stainless. A magnet does stick to it, so that narrows it down a little bit.
I will, for the sake of science, shave a few more times with this razor without revisiting the balsa, just to see if the edge will last or not.
This razor demands a VERY light touch on the honing, due to the very acute bevel angle. For those who do not rock the balsa but instead shave straight off a 12k or a Jnat or film, a single layer of tape might be just the thing when honing.
I still would recommend a decent American vintage razor over this, for a newbie on a budget who wants to hone his own. It would be too easy to mess this dainty little thing up. For someone who wants to buy/hone/sell them as shave ready, I give it half a thumb up. That could change over the next few shaves. I like that it has no stabilizer. I can hone it while watching youtubes and stuff.
I would like to know exactly what steel this is. So far I don't see as much as a water spot so I am wondering if it is stainless. A magnet does stick to it, so that narrows it down a little bit.
I will, for the sake of science, shave a few more times with this razor without revisiting the balsa, just to see if the edge will last or not.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Third shave with the Red Deer. I did not hit the balsa after the previous shave, just stropped 50 on the leather before this shave. One pass got me SAS but the razor struggled with upper lip, very spotty cutting. Not satisfied. I should not see that much performance drop after only one shave without balsa. I will give it one more try, after hitting the balsa again. A razor should not NEED to see the balsa after each and every shave just to shave decently. Plus only a minority of us regularly rock the balsa in the Way Of The Method. So it looks like as far as the average shaver goes, this is indeed just a RSO. Too bad. I had my hopes up for a short minute there.
Just out of curiousity I put it away without drying. I want to see if this is a stainless alloy or not. I suspect that it is, maybe a hodge podge meltdown of junk SS bits and parts and odds and ends. Typical Pakistani metallurgy. In which case it is not ever going to make much of a razor.
So one more shave until I unload this thing on somebody. I did my bit already. Stay tuned for the PIF.
Just out of curiousity I put it away without drying. I want to see if this is a stainless alloy or not. I suspect that it is, maybe a hodge podge meltdown of junk SS bits and parts and odds and ends. Typical Pakistani metallurgy. In which case it is not ever going to make much of a razor.
So one more shave until I unload this thing on somebody. I did my bit already. Stay tuned for the PIF.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Shaved with the Red Deer again, with three days of growth to work with, but this time I didn't skip the balsa. The edge just doesn't seem to last without the post shave maintenance. The good news is that WITH the balsa and .1u between shaves, along with a good stropping on hanging leather of course, the shave isn't that great, but not so bad, either. Again, I got mostly DFS, and nothing less than SAS, single pass. The razor went without a thorough wash or wipe last shave, and after this shave I wiped it good with my towel and did not detect even any water spotting. So probably some cheap cutlery steel or steels.
So Razor, or RSO? It kinda bridges the gap, because it can be made to shave reasonably well, it's just that the edge does not last as it should, and it can't apparently be brought up to the level of sharpness and comfort of a good razor. I suppose since it can give a single pass shave that is nowhere less than SAS, I should call it a razor, but it is just barely not an RSO. Newbies will not be able to hone this unless they truly understand what light pressure really means, and how to get it. Otherwise, it will shave reluctantly, and not gently. With a Method edge, and a fairly low shave angle, it is a little rough ATG under the jaw but I have no AS burn and no redness or cuts. I drag the spine on the ATG, everywhere else it is one spine thickness off, but remember that this spine is a bit thin.
I was going to turn this one out in a passaround, but at the going price of this razor, it really isn't worth postage and bother. Maybe a PIF. I can't sell it. Performance is just not good enough for me to accept money for it.
So Razor, or RSO? It kinda bridges the gap, because it can be made to shave reasonably well, it's just that the edge does not last as it should, and it can't apparently be brought up to the level of sharpness and comfort of a good razor. I suppose since it can give a single pass shave that is nowhere less than SAS, I should call it a razor, but it is just barely not an RSO. Newbies will not be able to hone this unless they truly understand what light pressure really means, and how to get it. Otherwise, it will shave reluctantly, and not gently. With a Method edge, and a fairly low shave angle, it is a little rough ATG under the jaw but I have no AS burn and no redness or cuts. I drag the spine on the ATG, everywhere else it is one spine thickness off, but remember that this spine is a bit thin.
I was going to turn this one out in a passaround, but at the going price of this razor, it really isn't worth postage and bother. Maybe a PIF. I can't sell it. Performance is just not good enough for me to accept money for it.
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