Ready to give up

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

The first thing I would suspect after only a few weeks is technique - some combination of angle and pressure. When I had been shaving for a couple of weeks, I hit a similar rough spot, and thought my edges had gone south. It caused me to do a whole lot of unnecessary honing, and I even swapped razors with a mentor here who sent me a razor he had honed, and I sent him one of mine. That experiment showed very plainly that the edges on my razors were just fine. That meant that it was user error.

As frustrating as that can be, it does get better. Some of it is just practice. Some of it is trial and error. Some of it is perspective, as when you start to get some consistently decent shaves, the frustration suddenly seems trite and overblown.

While it is surely possible that something has gone awry with the edge of your razor, it is more likely pilot error. Remember that back when straight razors were the only tool available, young boys learned to shave when they still had fuzz. By the time their beards were as developed and tough as yours are now, they had several hundred shaves worth of experience to lean on. You're trying to tackle this learning curve with a man's fully developed beard growth. That will make this more difficult. Keep at it, and it will improve!

Excellent advice!

 

[monco]

While it is surely possible that something has gone awry with the edge of your razor, it is more likely pilot error. Remember that back when straight razors were the only tool available, young boys learned to shave when they still had fuzz. By the time their beards were as developed and tough as yours are now, they had several hundred shaves worth of experience to lean on. You're trying to tackle this learning curve with a man's fully developed beard growth. That will make this more difficult. Keep at it, and it will improve!

Thanks, that's very well said, so true. It wasn't totally painless, for me, to start with cartridge razors, either, so I'll try to keep that in mind.

Lots of good advice here, big thanks to everybody equally!

Before reading @Dzaw's post, I ended up honing my razor. I had to go back all the way to 9 micron film to get the edge alive(??), and finally it started to cut hair along entire edge. I used really low pressure, and honed with one hand as recommended. I finished with crox this time (I know, not exactly a method edge, but wanted to try it), and it became strong HHT-4 again.

I have only one shave behind me with this fresh edge. Interestingly, the razor felt even sligthly duller than before, I would say borderline tugging on some spots, but it was probably just my technique. However, no pain or discomfort resulted during the shave, nor after. So, all is good for now. But I've said that before, so let's see how it goes from here.

I'm going to buy the pocket microscope recommended by @Chan Eil Whiskers. And also an alum block, which I've never used this far; not sure if it is good to use it constantly for dry skin, but it is good to see what it will tell about my shave.

Thanks again!

 

[steveclarkus]

Thanks, that's very well said, so true. It wasn't totally painless, for me, to start with cartridge razors, either, so I'll try to keep that in mind.

Lots of good advice here, big thanks to everybody equally!

Before reading @Dzaw's post, I ended up honing my razor. I had to go back all the way to 9 micron film to get the edge alive(??), and finally it started to cut hair along entire edge. I used really low pressure, and honed with one hand as recommended. I finished with crox this time (I know, not exactly a method edge, but wanted to try it), and it became strong HHT-4 again.

I have only one shave behind me with this fresh edge. Interestingly, the razor felt even sligthly duller than before, I would say borderline tugging on some spots, but it was probably just my technique. However, no pain or discomfort resulted during the shave, nor after. So, all is good for now. But I've said that before, so let's see how it goes from here.

I'm going to buy the pocket microscope recommended by @Chan Eil Whiskers. And also an alum block, which I've never used this far; not sure if it is good to use it constantly for dry skin, but it is good to see what it will tell about my shave.

Thanks again!

The alum block also serves as a great antiperspirant too. Alum is what is in antiperspirants. Just keep shaving and you will get there.

 

[monco]

A week of str shaving behind me, again.

Razor started feeling duller after each shave. And HHT was falling about one level lower after each shave. So, I decided I won't allow the razor to become dull and stropped it on pasted balsa between shaves. And thus: no razor burn/drying of the skin this week at all. Some slight irritation in couple of spots but that overwhelming, disagreeing feeling on my entire face, that was gone this week. Overall, I feel pretty good about this

Interestingly, best pasted stropping results came with chrox+feox combination, which gave a smooth, effortless shave and virtually no irritation. Using chrox only was just ok. Diamond pastes (a'la The Method) gave the worst (but still serviceable) results: razor didn't feel as sharp/smooth as off feox, and there was slight irritation directly after shave (but only for short time and still no razor burn during the day). I must be doing something wrong with diamond pastes (yes, balsa is lapped and I tried to use minimal amount of paste).

Anyway, I've only ever managed to shave with one straight razor, namely Genco Expert. Thus, next week I shall finally try another razor. Can't wait!

 

[monco]

3 days of shaving with a Friodur 6/8 stainless. It is clearly HHT-3/4, i.e. judging by HHT seems somewhat sharper than my shave-ready Genco. For the first two shaves I gave it a chrox+feox treatment. Horrible razor burn/irritation (although no red skin), felt it almost directly after shave. 3rd time I tried tried 50 laps on Dovo Black only. Much better shave, no irritation after, but still somewhat dry skin and some irritation later in the day (could be due to previous episodes).

Now I am going to take day off from shaving to let my skin heal and try again in Friday. Because I don't think it does good to my skin to let it burn every other day. Somehow it comes to mind that the razor was too sharp in the first attempts (HHT was snapping hairs all the way up to couple of inches length, I should have filmed it...), and that Dovo Black toned it down a bit. Actually, after Dovo Black the razor felt even sharper and smoother, shave was quite effortless compared to chrox+feox. Weird...

Pocket microscope has been ordered. After I get it, I am definately going to take a look at my edges.

 

[monco]

Trying to shave for a week with Henckels Friodur 6/8 was a total failure. Shaves were all poor, and last shave feels like I shaved with sandpaper. And again my chin started to tug; that's the original problem area. This is exactly the reason why I always came back to cartridges: straights have given me poor to mediocre shaves, while razors seemingly are super sharp according to all sharpness tests (HHT, arm hair, thumbpad).

I will continue to shave with Genco. It is still ok, even though not as good as in the first week when I miracuously honed it. Having that razor I know it's not my prep, not the lather, not the aftershave balm, not even my technique (at least not substantially). It is the damn razor that simply needs to be honed properly. I guess something is still off in my honing. Sharpness tests will do me no good anymore, I can HHT-4 up to couple inches already and the razor just feels even worse. I need some other revelation. Maybe the pocket microscope will provide it.

I don't know what to do next, but I guess that one shave-ready razor is better than none. I will try to find a local honemeister as I don't like the idea of sending my Friodur by mail.

 

[Dzaw]

Trying to shave for a week with Henckels Friodur 6/8 was a total failure. Shaves were all poor, and last shave feels like I shaved with sandpaper. And again my chin started to tug; that's the original problem area. This is exactly the reason why I always came back to cartridges: straights have given me poor to mediocre shaves, while razors seemingly are super sharp according to all sharpness tests (HHT, arm hair, thumbpad).

I will continue to shave with Genco. It is still ok, even though not as good as in the first week when I miracuously honed it. Having that razor I know it's not my prep, not the lather, not the aftershave balm, not even my technique (at least not substantially). It is the damn razor that simply needs to be honed properly. I guess something is still off in my honing. Sharpness tests will do me no good anymore, I can HHT-4 up to couple inches already and the razor just feels even worse. I need some other revelation. Maybe the pocket microscope will provide it.

I don't know what to do next, but I guess that one shave-ready razor is better than none. I will try to find a local honemeister as I don't like the idea of sending my Friodur by mail.

I must disagree with your diagnosis doc.

Not that I’m there to see the results, nor am I any sort of expert, but I can tell you from experience (having fought exactly the beast you are currently fighting) that it may very well be technique. Some confluence of angle, pressure, and approach/ direction.

I call it “finding the line” and I had many great shaves followed by terrible shaves where I thought the razor had gone dull before I started being able to recognize when I was “finding the line”.

I would hone up both of the razors I owned at the time using exactly the same honing technique and equipment. I would shave with one, and get a fantastic shave. Then I would shave with the other, and get a good, but not great shave. Then the first one, and I would get a terrible, irritated, bleeding shave and swear that there must’ve been a foil edge or some other fault in the razor. Razor two would the provide a great shave, and so I would then be convinced that there must be some difference in the steel, or the honing or some such. Eventually, I would re hone both together from scratch, and get a similar series of behaviors but with the razors switched...

Then, I hit my 90th shave, or thereabouts, and for the first time was able to recognize when I had “found the line”. I had the angle just right, and got the approach vector right, and had the perfect glide, and it all came together. I had that line for most, but not all of the rest of that shave.

Starting at 101 shaves is where I first got to the point where I could step into that line deliberately, and pretty consistently find it early in the shave. I still lose the line mid shave sometimes, but much less often.

Keep at it, as I tell new shavers a lot - you have some terrible shaves ahead of you, and this learning curve can be maddening. However, if you stick with it you absolutely can learn to give yourself the best shave of your life with these razors.

 

[monco]

Well, after all my struggling through the years I think I am at least on my 50th shave. Of course that's still far away from 100 and not all of my 50-or-so shaves were concecutive... So, I agree, technique can be improved and most likely will as I go on.

I am just not sure how much further I can go with these bad shaves. I am starting to be afraid that I hurt my skin eventually. Not by bleeding or anything like that (I've never seen bloody shaves to be an issue, frankly, I very rarely get small wounds that heal with a drop of cold water). But the bad shaves are very irritating to my skin and that can't be good. It feels like bad sunburn.

Nevertheless, Genco is still an option since it seems to give ok shaves more constantly (until I rehone and the razors switch behaviours ), so I will continue training with it.

 

[aussie]

For totally consistent results, you can try a Feather shavette. Brutally sharp and you never need to worry about sharpness, stropping, or honing ever again. The blades are super smooth and they give a very long life.

The only real downside is the near vertical learning curve.

 

[monco]

I tried a no-name shavette long time ago. I had lot of nicks and cuts, even sharp red lines across my neck, since it was difficult to figure out the orientation of the blade. I don't remember how the shave was otherwise, but I figure the blade was very sharp.

Anyway, for me shavettes are beside the point, I want to shave with a real straight razor. If that won't work, I'll go back to cartridges that have served me well. And for straights, honing and stropping is part of the fun of it. If I objectively measure by HHT results, I am getting better at honing. I never expected that the actual shave is absurdly difficult, though.

 

[idanbarber]

Even if I gave up SR, I have to say that it was a sensational experience for me.
Maybe one day I'll come back to SR...

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Well, after all my struggling through the years I think I am at least on my 50th shave. Of course that's still far away from 100 and not all of my 50-or-so shaves were concecutive... So, I agree, technique can be improved and most likely will as I go on.

I am just not sure how much further I can go with these bad shaves. I am starting to be afraid that I hurt my skin eventually. Not by bleeding or anything like that (I've never seen bloody shaves to be an issue, frankly, I very rarely get small wounds that heal with a drop of cold water). But the bad shaves are very irritating to my skin and that can't be good. It feels like bad sunburn.

Nevertheless, Genco is still an option since it seems to give ok shaves more constantly (until I rehone and the razors switch behaviours ), so I will continue training with it.

Nothing wrong with sticking with just one razor. In fact, it can be a very good idea. As you've discovered, a sharp and comfortable edge is vital.

I've shaved with the straight long enough - about 210 or so shaves - to learn that my learning curve with the SR is a lot longer than 210 shaves.

To me the first goal with the SR is to keep all the blood inside the skin. After that, the next goal is a Damn Comfortable Shave.

• Comfort during the shave.
• Comfort immediately after the shave.
• Comfort until the next shave.

It sounds to me like something is wrong. I suspect either all your edges aren't yet very good (which is not a criticism of you because getting them just right is not simple nor is it easy) or your technique isn't consistent (again, not simple, not easy).

Not all razors hone the same. The steels vary, etc.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[ajduplessis]

A week of str shaving behind me, again.

Razor started feeling duller after each shave. And HHT was falling about one level lower after each shave. So, I decided I won't allow the razor to become dull and stropped it on pasted balsa between shaves. And thus: no razor burn/drying of the skin this week at all. Some slight irritation in couple of spots but that overwhelming, disagreeing feeling on my entire face, that was gone this week. Overall, I feel pretty good about this

Interestingly, best pasted stropping results came with chrox+feox combination, which gave a smooth, effortless shave and virtually no irritation. Using chrox only was just ok. Diamond pastes (a'la The Method) gave the worst (but still serviceable) results: razor didn't feel as sharp/smooth as off feox, and there was slight irritation directly after shave (but only for short time and still no razor burn during the day). I must be doing something wrong with diamond pastes (yes, balsa is lapped and I tried to use minimal amount of paste).

Anyway, I've only ever managed to shave with one straight razor, namely Genco Expert. Thus, next week I shall finally try another razor. Can't wait!

Reading through this thread and specifically this response I believe that you are not setting the bevel 100%. What I mean by this is that you stop short of where the edge needs to be. Once the bevel start to form and cut you move on too quickly resulting in 'half' set bevel. You are on the edge, no pun intended of getting there... That is why the edge deteriorate quickly, but come back after some pasted stropping. The bevel must be well set to enable polishing to a keen edge. Don't move on (around 6-8K) to final polishing progression until the razors does not tree-top across the entire cutting edge, only then move on to final polishing progression (12k onwards).

 

[monco]

Reading through this thread and specifically this response I believe that you are not setting the bevel 100%. What I mean by this is that you stop short of where the edge needs to be. Once the bevel start to form and cut you move on too quickly resulting in 'half' set bevel. You are on the edge, no pun intended of getting there... That is why the edge deteriorate quickly, but come back after some pasted stropping. The bevel must be well set to enable polishing to a keen edge. Don't move on (around 6-8K) to final polishing progression until the razors does not tree-top across the entire cutting edge, only then move on to final polishing progression (12k onwards).

Thanks! While I appreciate the fact that my technique cannot be perfected yet, I too feel that it is simply my honing that gets me close but quite not there yet. For I shaved one week with a freshly honed razor without problems or any extra concentration on technique.

I will try to reset the bevel and spend more time on lower grits. I've been in fact struggling to know exactly when the bevel is set. I know, burr method should get you there, but the burr I get is always so very subtle that I am starting to doubt if I'm doing the method correctly at all.

I've used cherry tomato to check required sharpness before, but that starts to rot my blades very quickly and aggressively so lately I've resorted to TNT, TPT and arm hair tests. The problem is that all tests other than cherry tomato test are fairly subjective, unfortunately, so I am guessing.

I wonder if the pocket microscope (still under delivery) will help in bevel setting, it should be possible to see an evenly formed scratch pattern after bevel setter hone.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thanks! While I appreciate the fact that my technique cannot be perfected yet, I too feel that it is simply my honing that gets me close but quite not there yet. For I shaved one week with a freshly honed razor without problems or any extra concentration on technique.

I will try to reset the bevel and spend more time on lower grits. I've been in fact struggling to know exactly when the bevel is set. I know, burr method should get you there, but the burr I get is always so very subtle that I am starting to doubt if I'm doing the method correctly at all.

I've used cherry tomato to check required sharpness before, but that starts to rot my blades very quickly and aggressively so lately I've resorted to TNT, TPT and arm hair tests. The problem is that all tests other than cherry tomato test are fairly subjective, unfortunately, so I am guessing.

I wonder if the pocket microscope (still under delivery) will help in bevel setting, it should be possible to see an evenly formed scratch pattern after bevel setter hone.

It took me a while to "get" the burr method of bevel setting.

What helped was to overdo the burr a time or two. Using a blade I consider a practice (of honing) blade (and am willing to sacrifice) made that more palatable. One of the cheaper Gold Dollars works fine here. Overdo the burr. Make the burr not subtle. Make it big so you can't miss it. Then do the other side of the blade, making another huge and not subtle burr.

Use some pressure if you need to. It might take a few hundred strokes per side of the blade. If I get over about 250 strokes on Side A without getting a bevel I switch to Side B and do 250 there, and then start over on Side A.

I count strokes getting the same number on both sides (about the same).

Next do more laps on the bevel setter, this time doing one lap in one direction and another on the other side. Alternating sides of the blade and sort of doing a final honing on the bevel setter. Get light here.

My bevel setter for this is the Chosera 1K.

Then I'd suggest doing the thumbnail test on a wet thumbnail. The blade should easily bite into the nail a bit at every point along the edge + moving the edge along the nail without lifting the edge one should feel the edge as sort of smoothly and evenly grabbing and digging into the nail. There should not be any places where the edge feels like it is skipping. At least that's how it feels to me. If it doesn't, I'm not through setting the bevel.

I now know what a very subtle, early burr feels like. I get one (a burr) on both sides but then I lightly polish the edge on the bevel setter before moving on to my next stone. I want a nicely done edge off the bevel setter.

If my next stone is a synthetic it's a 3K. I regard that stone as Part Two of the Bevel Setting Process. I check the edge again after the 3K with the thumbnail test. It should feel even smoother and better.

Same with the 5K synthetic. Check with thumbnail test.

If my next stone is a natural stone such as the Double Convexed Ark's softer side I regard it as Part Two of the Bevel Setting Process, and again check the edge after it with the thumbnail test.

I do no thumbnail tests beyond the stones just mentioned.

If the bevel isn't right you've not even gotten on the road which goes to the ballpark where the game is played. At least that's what I remind myself of.

I'm sure others can tell you helpful things about how to hone. I only know what I do and what's helped me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[monco]

I tried to get exaggerated burr on the razor and succeeded, but only on the first side. The burr was clearly there. Not so sure if it was even and equal along the whole edge, but anyway I clearly felt it. I needed some 300 to 400 strokes with considerable pressure (not too hard, though, I believe, I didn't force the razor, just applied some pressure).

The burr on the second side was not so clear, however, even if I did the same amount of strokes for that side. I progressed forward with the razor, but then struggled to get suction/undercut of water on the other side, possibly because of the incomplete burr.

I could try this again with my good razor, but maybe better to invest in Gold Dollars. Would you order them for couple of bucks from Ebay or what would be the best way to get them? I am aware they might need some work, but I've got time to play around with them. It is quite an intriguing thought to order 2 or 3 of them for less than $5 each (free postage) and see what happens. How about this Gold Dollar on Ebay?

 

[MO1]

You are getting very good advice!
One thing id like to add that once you hit pasted strops you will start to round off the edge abit.
So the burr method is almost a must imo.
Pasted strops are an easy way to get you to sharp and smooth enough. But should be used sparingly, because if you have rounded the edge too much, flat stones just wont do anything to the edge (bevel reset neccessary).

i have gotten to the point where i acutally prefer to shave straight off stones, now this depends on what kind of stone ect ect.
Would not have belived that earlier as pasted strops was a really easy way to get edges sharp and smooth, but i was persistent with the stones, and that is because of reading about everyones experiences here.
My point is though that touch ups are much easier with only stones, as you dont get that rounding effect on the edge.

Edit: by straight off stones, i mean after a good stropping on leather ofcourse.

 

[monco]

I am thinking I should buy couple of Gold Dollars, take a step back from shaving, and practise bevel setting and honing until I get the razors to almost shave-ready off 8k.

Pasted strops (balsa) are causing me problems at this point of my learning curve, because, as you said, they are rounding the edge, yet I haven't got a good bevel underneath.

 

[GKR1]

I am thinking I should buy couple of Gold Dollars, take a step back from shaving, and practise bevel setting and honing until I get the razors to almost shave-ready off 8k.

Worst Idea ever! Shaving of 8k with a gold dollar would make anyone give up shaving! The notion to be able to shave off 8k is ludicrous. I guess you can shave of a 5k as well, but why!

 

[monco]

Worst Idea ever! Shaving of 8k with a gold dollar would make anyone give up shaving! The notion to be able to shave off 8k is ludicrous. I guess you can shave of a 5k as well, but why!

I'm referring to the old notion in Straight Razor Place (IIRC) that one is supposed to be able to shave off 8k. And that it should be/could be accomplished first, before attempting to refine the edge further.

I actually just shaved off 3u aka pink film (8k) with the Genco that I tried to reset the bevel with burr method (I just had to try it!) The shave was doable and not much worse than those with CrOx+FeOx treatment, so I believe it could be done. My edge was HHT2/3 after 12u film. Anyway, maybe this is not easy to do with Gold Dollars, but my point is that I need to concentrate on bevel setting more and I need some cheap razors for that.

With Gold Dollars, I can also use cherry tomato test without worrying about ugly pitting of the edge. While setting bevel with burr method, TPT, TNT and arm hair test all started working straight after couple of dozen strokes on the hone. These tests are too subtle to me, I cannot read the delicate hints they give. That's why cherry tomato test is the only one I can read (I've seen the videos on how it should work).

Any comments on those cheap Gold Dollar 66s of Ebay? Are they simply trial and error, possibly and likely lots of work?