Razor stones from antiquity and their historical use on offensive blades.

[Empire straights]

When I pick my finishing stone, for any blade, it's job description is my focus when I pick that stone. I like to use coarse(ish) llyn Idwals or Charnly forest stones to leave a very fine toothy edge on a pocket knife. I can use my knife to "shape" my beard when I finish on these stones and give it a good stropping. How does this translate to defensive blades? Coticules are known in the modern world as leaving an edge that has that "can't cut you" feel to it. In antiquity that was not their reputation. Romans copied the Gladius from the Celt tribes they had been warring with because it was such an effective weapon, and it absolutly is. In close quarters I'd pick it over just about anything and i could imagine an ancient battlefieldbeing pretty packed and cramped. I guess you just turn yourself into a blender in the crowd? I'm obviously being facetious but I do think about these question and about how the ancestors of humanity lived. Were we just hillbillies and rednecks roaming the earth to feed stock and grow crops? I dunno. Romans used coticules to hone their swords. Their Gladius they copied from the Celts. I've read they controlled part of the Ardennes range because of the coticule mine/ quarries/ formations that were there I have no clue on their depth or mine type. I don't know if they used Belgian blues but I've got 2 that leave an edge on a knife/ razor/ chisel/ plane that's identical(in skin feel shaving neck hair) to an old Norton black ark. The reason I list the different blades is because they all demand different pressures. I would imagine Romans used a smallish stone and rubbed circles on the edge like an axe stone. I have coticules that leave a toothy edge, just like low grit bbws but if I was using them on a sword I'd go for the bbw that finished like an ark. My reasoning is because I get edges from those two stones that have cut me pretty deeply and I had no idea until I noticed blood was pooling by my cabinet and I don't drink liquor anymore so a nick doesn't bleed profusely(I think about distilling rye whiskey though). I know we have lots of history buffs here and numerous people who live in the area and probably have local knowledge of the history. What say you, my stone cherishing friends? If you had to go to war what stones would you choose? Why? Is there a historical context for this choice?

 

[Empire straights]

Im surprised the Romans never picked up the battle axe or sax(as far as i know). At that point in the republic the senate had devolved into utter corruption and half the republic(and more importantly the military) was comprised of foreigners who had no desire to maintain Rome. So... instead they hired Saxon and Bavarian "hordes" that pioneered those weapons and were experts at wielding them. Eventually the Saxons, Jutes, geographical Bavarians conquered their ruling class and the two societies slowly bled together. I'm not a historian of ancient(or modern) Europe but if love to be do any corrections or refutations.. from what I remember this vision became the Holy Roman Empire, I guess until Byzantium fell.....

 

[Empire straights]

In this picture, to my eyes, it looks like you can see the water flow direction on each stone. The larger bbw is coarse and leaves an edge similar to a coarse washita but polished a little better. Does anyone have experience getting finer effects and more keen edge from honing at different orientations on a stone? If I remember correctly the garnets in a bbw are more (American) football shaped and I could see their orientation having a pretty large effect on how they cut and their speed. I hope @cotedupy weighs in on this one, and @rideon66. There are many, many, many more people here that possess an insane wealth of knowledge(only wealth worth having aside from family but that comes from knowledge) and I'm sure know this specific topic very, very.

 

[Legion]

It's an interesting question, and one that I have though about a bit.

Obviously the Japanese sword polishers and cutlers used Jnat water stones, as they do today.

Persians? Turkey stones?

And on a battle sword, how sharp was sharp enough? I'm doubting a middle ages sword could shave arm hair, whith perhaps the exception of Japan and Persia.

 

[cotedupy]

With regards to Romans use, or use around the 'cradle of civilization' that was the Mediterranean, we're actually quite lucky in the amount we know. The first detailed description of sharpening stones in Western literature is in Pliny's Natural History, which was completed in 77AD.

Some of these stones are unknown today like the Spanish Laminium stone. But others we do know; the stone from Naxos I think is likely to be what we call emery now, and the Cretan stone is already regarded as the best of the best.

Interestingly Cilicia is not Sicily, it was a region in what is today southern Turkey, Arsinoe was there too.

The Roman conquest of Gaul happened largely in the c.1st BC, so Coticules would have likely been known to Pliny, but be quite new on the scene. Passernices is probably a Celtic (Gallic) word, and I suspect likely refers to them.

 

[RayClem]

Most of the natural stones used for honing today are metamorphic rocks formed over thousands of years of pressure within the earth's crust. Thus, they are all ancient. Of course, today we also have manufactured stones formed from abrasives and resins produced using machinery capable of developing extreme pressure. Some natural stones we use somehow managed to come to the surface through earthquakes or other geological events. Others were mined deep underground or even under the oceans and seas. Stones suitable for use as hones come from all over the world. I suspect someone one day might find the perfect razor hone deep under the ice of Antarctica.

 

[cotedupy]

I would imagine Romans used a smallish stone and rubbed circles on the edge like an axe stone

Yep. I believe 'on-the-go' sharpening of swords would have been done sitting down, with the blade between your legs and the tip on the ground, using a stone in hand, probably in long downwards strokes and/or circular motions.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Yep. I believe 'on-the-go' sharpening of swords would have been done sitting down, with the blade between your legs and the tip on the ground, using a stone in hand, probably in long downwards strokes and/or circular motions.

I'd guess a sweeping motion similar to the way one sharpens a scythe.

 

[Empire straights]

I'd guess a sweeping motion similar to the way one sharpens a scythe.

I sharpen a machete the same way I would an axe with small circles but I've never tried a go at a broad sword, which I would imagine would be quite different from a machete.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I doubt that edges on fighting weapons were taken to “razor” edges with high polishing stones. More likely they were much toothy edges that would hold up.

Take a page from butchers and pro loggers, (not the racing guys who only need to cut one log), who sharpen with much coarser stones usually silicone carbide. Working Tools, axes and edge tools, machete, and scythes often with files.

Folks are often misinformed by Movies, TV, and lore, about edge tools. A fighting sword and knives were just a tools.

Look at your EDC, how sharp does it need to be to cut string and packing tape, how long does a 20k edge last against cardboard?

 

[cotedupy]

With regards to Romans use, or use around the 'cradle of civilization' that was the Mediterranean, we're actually quite lucky in the amount we know. The first detailed description of sharpening stones in Western literature is in Pliny's Natural History, which was completed in 77AD.

Some of these stones are unknown today like the Spanish Laminium stone. But others we do know; the stone from Naxos I think is likely to be what we call emery now, and the Cretan stone is already regarded as the best of the best.

Interestingly Cilicia is not Sicily, it was a region in what is today southern Turkey, Arsinoe was there too.

The Roman conquest of Gaul happened largely in the c.1st BC, so Coticules would have likely been known to Pliny, but be quite new on the scene. Passernices is probably a Celtic (Gallic) word, and I suspect likely refers to them.


View attachment 1569422

Here we go, a bit more digging and it sounds like my guess was correct (wonders never cease!). This is from a French website about the Celts/Gauls, forgive my rubbish French translation abilities but it reads along the lines of...


Pliny's 'passernices' are known to us by the name Coticule. A sedimentary metamorphic rock with very powerful abrasive ability. The Coticule stone, which is used for razors, has been found in Roman tombs and is still quarried in the Ardennes today. Though it hasn't yet been proven whether or not 'passernices' is actually a Celtic word.

 

[cotedupy]

(Sorry - I got sidetracked trying to research about all Pliny's stones. Again.)

To answer the actual q... I would pack something durable, relatively lightweight, easy to use, able to work quite coarsely, but also finish fine if needed, and interchangeably with either water or oil depending on which was more readily available in the area I was conquering at the time.

I would take, of course - a Washita.

 

[Legion]

I would take, of course - a Washita.

I would too.

I’ve always liked to imagine this old unbacked coticule bout I got from you, with a hole for a belt loop, was of Gaulish or Roman origins. Impossible to ever know for sure, of coarse.

 

[cotedupy]

Here we go, a bit more digging and it sounds like my guess was correct (wonders never cease!). This is from a French website about the Celts/Gauls, forgive my rubbish French translation abilities but it reads along the lines of...


Pliny's 'passernices' are known to us by the name Coticule. A sedimentary metamorphic rock with very powerful abrasive ability. The Coticule stone, which is used for razors, has been found in Roman tombs and is still quarried in the Ardennes today. Though it hasn't yet been proven whether or not 'passernices' is actually a Celtic word.




View attachment 1569819

Ok, so obviously I've just done a bit of a deep dive into the possible etymology of 'passernices'.

Here's a footnote in some largely unrealted old paper that suggests the name may instead simply be a derivation from the ethnicon (group of people) Passerentiaci:

So who were they? Well, apparently a Roman cavalry unit in Gaul:

Ergo - it may well be that the first recorded name for the stones we now know as 'Coticules' came directly (in an etymological sense) as a result of their ability to sharpen Roman swords for killing people in France.

 

[Steve56]

I take it that in the middle ages, swords and knives were disposable. You hacked armor, leather, other swords, horses, etc, until your sword broke or became unusable and then got another one, if you lived. This age included the first Japanese swords. They were extremely crude.

After the middle ages, aka the advent of gunpowder, the Japanese said ’What the h*ll are we going to do with all these swords, they’re useless?’. They had a good answer, they made swords into works of art going forward. After the medieval ages, swords were only ceremonial, any other use would be the equivalent of the American saying, ‘Bringing a knife to a gunfight.’ You only do that once.

I’ve had a lot of offensive blades but most of them were razors /H. Gerber (would rust in dry air), Hattori (nice!), and Fairbairn. The edges weren’t the real show on these, they all had needle points and were designed to ‘poke’ into the eh, target. The double edge just needed to be sharp enough to swing back and forth in the target a few times, but the point was the deal. Fairbairn made a longer model near the end of WW2, because they figured that maybe the Russians wouldn’t stop and the Russian great coat was 4” thick. So to get to vital organs they needed a knife longer that the original Fairbairn. The American WW2 bowie like the KA-BAR was an exception because it was mostly used as a large general purpose knife.

So I don’t think that sharpening the cutting edge on an offensive blade was a big deal.

This is a Hattori fighter, it’s a ‘poker’, not a ‘slicer’. No clue what the blue dots are, a camera artifact maybe? They’re not on the knife.

 

[cotedupy]

Is there a historical context for this choice?

Is there some kind of 'Historical Context' Prize I win now...?

 

[Empire straights]

Is there some kind of 'Historical Context' Prize I win now...?

Only if you actually take your stone into war.

 

[RayClem]

In the middle ages, professional soldiers carried swords, either heavy longswords held in both hands, short swords held in one hand with a shield in the other, or perhaps a pointed rapier desigined to penetrate through the cracks in armor. Local militia might defend their property and lands with farming tools such as pitchforks, scythes, and axes. Then there were the combination weapons like halberds that were a cross between two tools. Every such weapon had to be made by hand by a blacksmith who would take anywhere from hours to days to produce a single piece, depending upon its size and complexity.

Early weapons were made of brass or bronze that did not hold an edge well, but could be pounded back into shape when damaged. Carbon steel of low hardness does not hold an edge very well, but it is quite tough. It needed to be resharpened everytime there was a lull in battle, but it did not break. I once saw a video of a QVC channel infomercial for a replica Katana made of stainless steel. The show host was banging the Katana on the table to show how sturdy it was. The blade snapped in half and struck him. They had to call an ambulance. The replica was designed for show and not for combat.

Our straight razors need to hold an edge well, so they are often hardened to high HRC levels. They will take a super sharp edge, but the steel is rather brittle. If dropped, the blade may break. If honed for too long, the edge might crumble forming microchips.

Thus, producing blades and honing them are as much art as science.

 

[Empire straights]

In the middle ages, professional soldiers carried swords, either heavy longswords held in both hands, short swords held in one hand with a shield in the other, or perhaps a pointed rapier desigined to penetrate through the cracks in armor. Local militia might defend their property and lands with farming tools such as pitchforks, scythes, and axes. Then there were the combination weapons like halberds that were a cross between two tools. Every such weapon had to be made by hand by a blacksmith who would take anywhere from hours to days to produce a single piece, depending upon its size and complexity.

Early weapons were made of brass or bronze that did not hold an edge well, but could be pounded back into shape when damaged. Carbon steel of low hardness does not hold an edge very well, but it is quite tough. It needed to be resharpened everytime there was a lull in battle, but it did not break. I once saw a video of a QVC channel infomercial for a replica Katana made of stainless steel. The show host was banging the Katana on the table to show how sturdy it was. The blade snapped in half and struck him. They had to call an ambulance. The replica was designed for show and not for combat.

Our straight razors need to hold an edge well, so they are often hardened to high HRC levels. They will take a super sharp edge, but the steel is rather brittle. If dropped, the blade may break. If honed for too long, the edge might crumble forming microchips.

Thus, producing blades and honing them are as much art as science.

At some point id like to have a Gladius made the way katanas are with hard core steel and a soft steel/iron cladding. I'm not really a sword guy but the Gladius is impressive for to its track record.