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Razor sharpness malarkey - or - it's not me, it's you.

I've been DE shaving for long enough now that my technique has gotten pretty solid. I haven't been prone to too much acquisition disorder, so the variables I've been working with have been pretty much standardized by this point. Except for blades. I'm still working my way through the various sample packs I received several months ago when I started.

Let me backtrack. I currently work as a chef, but I am a scientist by training and by disposition. I started with Feather blades, whose universal reputation is well known, because I know that there is nothing smoother than a sharp edge. But I had been only using each brand for only 2-3 shaves before moving on to the next one, just to play the field. For a while there, each shave was better than the last one. Again, as a scientist, I hesitated about declaring each new brand of blade better than the last one, because I was still learning to perfect my technique. Anyway, I finally reached a certain plateau of essentially perfect shaves over the last few weeks. I lingered over the last two brands I tried - Astra SP and 7 O'Clock Green - because shaving with them has been so extremely pleasant. Tonight I decided to treat myself to the supreme shave of shaves, so I loaded up a brand new Feather, did some serious beard prep, and went at it.

Sidebar: Let me just say that I love the B&B community. You are a great bunch of guys (and a few gals) that I have learned a tremendous amount from. I have to say, though, the scientist in me sometimes chuckles at all the anecdotal evidence that gets thrown around here. YMMV is a great expression, and it is certainly true in most things. Scents are subjective things, and there are many different skin types and beard types that may respond differently to different pieces of equipment or techniques or creams and soaps. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about sharpness. Sharpness is an objective fact. YMMV does not apply to sharpness, strictly speaking. There may be other pertinent factors to a blade's edge, such as coatings, which have a significant effect on performance, but degree of sharpness is theoretically verifiable.

During blade reviews, I sometimes see statements such as "I find X brand to be the sharpest, but YMMV..." This confuses me. More often, I see statements like "X brand feels sharper, but Y brand gives a smoother and closer shave..." What??

Back to tonight's episode with the Feather. You guessed it; I had a thoroughly unpleasant shave, even though I wanted and expected it to be a brilliant shave. The last part of that last sentence is important; what we want and expect usually colors our experience. My mind was most likely ready to deceive me and let minor imperfections go unnoticed. But this was not the case. The blade was nasty. It pulled. It jumped. It was painful, but not because it was sharp. It acted for all the world like what I would expect in the kitchen from a knife with a less than sharp or even jagged, unaligned edge.

I would really like to see a microscopic or otherwise scientific analysis of the edges of the various razor brands. I'm calling bull**** on Feather. I understand that many people here get beautifully smooth shaves from Feathers. I expected to be one of them. I wanted it to work out. Feather: it's not me. It's you!
 
Thoughtful post, but I would expect no less from the great Providence Plantations.. :thumbup:

As an amateur cook and even more amateur scientist, I understand what you're saying about the sharpest blade being the smoothest. However I don't think that you're taking into account differences in skin type, shave technique and face shape that will influence how the sharpness and smoothness of a particular blade feels against the face. I lean towards moderately sharp blades that feel smooth against my skin.

For me the YMMV attitude has to do with respecting the other guy's opinion and experiences. I also take into account that often people will make a change with a new blade or new razor and simply be enthusiastic in there experience. Yet I know that the wonder product that seems to get rave reviews may not work that well for me - YMMV. I can get a nice shave from feathers, but it's not a pleasant shave. There are other sharp blades, some of he Gillette 7'clocks that I find wonderful, Gillette silver blues, Personna IP's, Voskhod are all perfect for me. I'm with you on feather blades, I can get good shaves with, but not enjoyable shaves.

I'm glad that you've found perfect shaves, the Astra SP's and 7'clock greens may be the blades for you.

On a side note, an extra benefit of marrying the woman that I did was an extended network of cousins all over Rhode Island whom we often visit for some good company and some excellent food.
 
Jumping blade sounds like a dry lather to me.
It does sound like it, but it was not the case. I was a complete skeptic about the differences between different blade brands, but I have found St. Pete blades to give consistently close and comfortable shaves, what one would expect from a sharp, smooth edge. I had great experience with Shark (Lord) blades as well. Not Feather. It's possible they are too sharp to hold a straight edge. Maybe stropping would help.
 
Redrako. Howdy neighbor! Don't get me wrong, I love and respect and believe in YMMV. And my shaves with Feather, while unpleasant, are close shaves. What I am really saying is: are they truly the sharpest? How do we know? Because they say they are the sharpest, and we all believe them? There is something different about them that can be felt when you shave with a Feather, but what is it really? I haven't seen an objective test for sharpness published anywhere, though it may exist. They may well be the sharpest, but I suspect they have a very delicate edge which is easily misaligned.
 

Toothpick

Needs milk and a bidet!
They are the sharpest in my opinion

there fixed it. :biggrin1:

I seem to remember a test I saw on TV. They were testing how sharp knives were that were made by some company. I think it was a Modern Marvels episode.

Anyway from my vague memory of it they had a system set up that held the knife edge up and in place and they would drop a stack of paper on the edge to determine how sharp it was.

they tested various knives like this and each one cut through different thickness of paper.

Now I'm thinking i saw something else......where they had a stack of paper set up and a knife in a machine that projected a preset amount of force on the paper. the more paper the knife got through with the pre determined amount of force the sharper the edge was.

maybe we need to somehow set up a similar test for DE blades. I'd be interested in this i know.

I happen to have ohhhhh 80 or so different blades as part of TGBE.....if we could think of a way to test the sharpness i'd be willing to sacrifice 1 of each.
 
I personally get very close and comfortable shaves from Feather blades. That said there are other blades that I prefer such as Personna Blue Labs and 7 O'clock yellows because I usually only get 2 or 3 good shaves from the Feathers and 4-6 with the others and the Feathers cost twice as much. I would say there is a lot of YMMV because I really don't like Astras and never get a good shave with them and they are a blade lots of people including yourself prefer. For me the best combination I have found is a very sharp blade in a relatively mild razor such as a Super Speed or Gillette Adjustable set on 4. Other people prefer a more aggressive razor with a blade that is a little milder, while still other people get great results from very aggressive razors and very sharp blades. Basically there is no perfect combination that works for everyone because as we always say YMMV.
 
You may have gotten a bad blade. Despite their price I have had more than one bad blade. I have not kept track of the percentage of bad blades but they do have a consistence issue.
 
All these comments seems consistent with the hypothesis that Feather blades are somehow more delicate than those of other brands.
 
As a chef I'm sure you'll appreciate that there is one other important factor in how well a blade cuts - "drag". You don't have to be scientist to understand this concept; just try cutting a piece of soft cheese in half. I have no idea how the various coatings affect the "drag" of the blade as it cuts (or possibly it's useful life span) but it seems possible to me that sharpness might not be the only thing that impacts the effectiveness of a blade. Finally people's faces differ in how sensitive they are such that the exact same razor, blade, lather and techique might still result in one person perceiving the shave as "smooth" while another perceives it as "harsh".

All that said I do appreciate your perspective on this. I think people often use YMMV as a way of saying they are simply perceiving something different from what anyone else might perceive without fully appreciating how much what they are "perceiving" is actually resulting from what they expect to perceive.

I may perhps overuse the following two examples but I think they bear reiterating in this kind of discussion ...

1 - I had a friend who always ordered Beefeater martinis because that was his favorite gin. So I set up a blind taste test of 5 gins for him. Not only did he not recognize Beefeaters he actually ranked it last out of all 5 of them. Nonetheless, he continued to order martinis iwth his "favorite" Beefeater gin in them.

2 - In a college chemistry class in a large lecture hall a professor dropped a beaker of liquid. He warned people it might smell bad but was harmless. He asked people to raise their hands when they began to smell it. After a while a few hands went up in front, then a few more a bit further back, and after a while some towars the back of the room. Turns out what he dropped was distilled water and he was making a point about the need for real objectivity when mking observations.
 
Sorry but I didn't understand your post at all. What are you trying to say?
I can see however that "sharpness" can be relative in some sense. For example, something can be sharp enough to cut through one kind of material, but not sharp enough to cut through another type of material, not necessarily more hard, but just different in some specific qualities. Another thing is that sharpness also has a subjective feel to it - something can be less sharp but feel more sharp than something else on your face or in your cutting hand, and vice versa. Another important thing is that objective measurements do not determine whether something is "sharp", but only the degree of sharpness. The decision on something being "sharp" is not objective, exactly the way that the decision on how much is exactly "a lot of money" isn't objective. Moreover, "mild" or "smooth" can also be construed as no less objective qualities than "sharp", if you assume that they correlate to primary qualities in the cutting object itself that lead to these sensations, and there is no logical impediment in trying to determine which primary qualities lead regularly to the sensations of "mildness" and "smoothness". Actually, blade makers do this all the time, trying to develop smoother and milder blades using different types of coatings, etc'. Yes, there is a basic difference between sharpness and "being smooth" or "being mild", in the sense that the latter are eventually being determined by the subjective feeling, while sharpness is defined in it's primary sense separately from it, but this "primary" sense of "sharpness" is not necessarily what we speak of when we say that some blade is "sharp" and another is not. It's the very restricted meaning of "sharpness" that's completely objective, and it's the very restricted meaning of "being mild" or "being smooth" that's completely subjective.
 
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I may perhps overuse the following two examples but I think they bear reiterating in this kind of discussion ...

1 - I had a friend who always ordered Beefeater martinis because that was his favorite gin. So I set up a blind taste test of 5 gins for him. Not only did he not recognize Beefeaters he actually ranked it last out of all 5 of them. Nonetheless, he continued to order martinis iwth his "favorite" Beefeater gin in them.

2 - In a college chemistry class in a large lecture hall a professor dropped a beaker of liquid. He warned people it might smell bad but was harmless. He asked people to raise their hands when they began to smell it. After a while a few hands went up in front, then a few more a bit further back, and after a while some towars the back of the room. Turns out what he dropped was distilled water and he was making a point about the need for real objectivity when making observations.

As a former bar owner and anthropologist, I not only completely agree with you, but I often use similar examples when speaking with people about this. As a general rule, Bud Light drinkers will never drink Miller Lite, and vice versa, in the event we ran out of either beer, even though they are essentially the same beer (I can hear the outrage building). Both will usually gladly take a Corona or Sam Adams or Guinness as an alternative, by the way. Vodka is even worse, because the differences between brands is even more negligible and the brand loyalty is so strong.
 
Well, just to keep the pot boiling, a couple of points stand out in your analysis of Feather blade sharpness. First, you are basing your conclusion on a very small sample and from a statistical standpoint it is totally inadequate to provide strong much less conclusive evidence that it is Feather and not you. Second, sharpness, while it can be measured objectively, is not necessarily the sole determinant of the quality of a shave. A good shave depends on a number of factors beyond the control of the blade manufacturer. I am not questioning the unpleasantness of your experience or the adequacy of your observation. I just think it's almost impossible to come to a conclusion about the overall quality of Feather blades from a small number of experiences. I also think that the quality of a blade's sharpness is not a factor that acts alone to determine shave quality. The blades coating(s), dimensions, the accuracy and security with which it is mounted in the razor all play a part with prep, lather and technique in major supporting roles. Oh, and by the way, I'm no big fan of Feathers.
 
I haven't come to any conclusions about Feather. Sorry if I gave that impression. But I have noticed some remarkable things about the blades and think I see some corroborating comments from many other users, including from those who use and love them. I am assuming nothing. Everyone who declares them to be undeniably the sharpest are the ones with the assumptions. They may be right, and there may be other factors contributing to smoothness. I am completely open to that. But nobody seems to be open to the possibility that they are wrong. That is my only point.
 
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Well, just to keep the pot boiling, a couple of points stand out in your analysis of Feather blade sharpness. First, you are basing your conclusion on a very small sample and from a statistical standpoint it is totally inadequate to provide strong much less conclusive evidence that it is Feather and not you. Second, sharpness, while it can be measured objectively, is not necessarily the sole determinant of the quality of a shave. A good shave depends on a number of factors beyond the control of the blade manufacturer. I am not questioning the unpleasantness of your experience or the adequacy of your observation. I just think it's almost impossible to come to a conclusion about the overall quality of Feather blades from a small number of experiences. I also think that the quality of a blade's sharpness is not a factor that acts alone to determine shave quality. The blades coating(s), dimensions, the accuracy and security with which it is mounted in the razor all play a part with prep, lather and technique in major supporting roles. Oh, and by the way, I'm no big fan of Feathers.

+1 I'm finding as I head into my 2nd year of DE wet shaving (after 35+ of a beard, canned goo & cartridges) the YMMV is more relative than ever as I "revisit" previous blades & my rotation. I have 2 main razors, Weber DLC & a EJde89l so reasonably consistent there. What is really changing is my use of creams, soaps, shave sticks. What happened to me was after sampling 30 to 35 blades, min of 3 shaves each with same razor, I bought 100 packages of about 7 that I felt gave me "great shaves"

OP - BTW, I enjoyed reading your post and interesting take that comes up again & again about what some feel s/b a objective item.

For me, in the top 3 for sharpness I have Feathers, Personna IP & Med Prep but I also have Astra, Sharks and even Derby for excellent shaves that I like....YMMV :001_smile

Gene
 
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musicman1951

three-tu-tu, three-tu-tu
There are plenty of relatively new shavers suffering blood loss at the hand of a Feather blade. Maybe they just assume it's too sharp. Maybe it's too rough.

It's a complicated equation. The combination of razor/blade can play a large part in efficiency. You have to have a large enough sample to eliminate the inevitable bad edge. You have to assume lather is not part of the evaluation. Or technique.

I agree that we are often making objective statements really based on subjective data. But since your blade has to function in your razor with your technique and your lather I'm not convinced YMMV is inappropriate in the selection process.

I've only used a handful of Feather blades. They all SEEMED quite sharp and gave an excellent shave. The reason I don't use them: don't seem any sharper than Med Preps for a lot more money and they only last half as long.
 
mindofsummer, check out mblakele's gallery for a number of microscopic blade edge views and their changes over time. I do really like your avatar. Bugs Bunny was a lot of laughs. http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/s...ds[]=keywords&fields[]=description&catids[]=0
Cool. Thanks. I'll take a look when I get a moment. Again, with the kitchen knife analogy. Stamped blades can be made sharper than forged blades, but the edge is more delicate and needs to be aligned much more often with a steel. I'm still wondering if Feathers might have a sharper yet more delicate edge, which is why many who love them say that they are only good for one or two shaves. Some blades may get damaged by handling or by certain beard types, which is why, theoretically, they might not work for some people. A sharp but misaligned edge could very well give the sort of rough but ultimately close shaves that some of us experience. Just a thought, not a conclusion ;-)
 
There are plenty of relatively new shavers suffering blood loss at the hand of a Feather blade. Maybe they just assume it's too sharp. Maybe it's too rough.

It's a complicated equation. The combination of razor/blade can play a large part in efficiency. You have to have a large enough sample to eliminate the inevitable bad edge. You have to assume lather is not part of the evaluation. Or technique.

I agree that we are often making objective statements really based on subjective data. But since your blade has to function in your razor with your technique and your lather I'm not convinced YMMV is inappropriate in the selection process.

I've only used a handful of Feather blades. They all SEEMED quite sharp and gave an excellent shave. The reason I don't use them: don't seem any sharper than Med Preps for a lot more money and they only last half as long.

All of this, plus Feather’s primary bevel is visibly longer than those found on other blades. This gives Feather the appearance of being sharper, even if it does not register on a conscious level.
 
Coming from the knife world I have a little input I'd like to make. What about the steel the blade is made of? Powdered steels vs regular stainless means different steels sharpen to different edges. Some edges come out polished, some toothy. Both can be wicked sharp, but they behave very differently when cutting. Some push cut well, others saw better (ouch!) Some steels roll when they wear, some chip, etc. perhaps feathers come out toothy but sharp. There is also the Rockwell hardness factor and durability factors to consider as as well. these are all factors taht can contribute to a blades performance. Since we don;t know much about the steels the blades are made of its hard to make any statement that are measurable, since we are missing most of the information we need to measure. Blade geometry is measurable, but it's not the whole picture. What would you rather have a really sharp piece of lead or a pretty sharp piece of s90v steel?

One test used for knives is cutting rope. How many feet can be cut into inches before it can't cut any more. Paper cutting tests, cardboard cutting tests. Can it push cut toilet paper? All are pretty inappropriate for a razor blade, and a DE at that except for maybe the TP one).

After looking at the 200x pictures I would be terrified to use any of them. Some look like wood saws LOL.
 
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