Trust me my life would be simpler and bank account healthier if I wasn't able to get a satisfactory BBS shave from all kinds of razors. It's a curse I tell ya
Razor design and the importance of blade rigidity
- Thread starter onethinline
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My memory is shot, all they actually said was "The subservience of the razor to the blade is reflected in this report..." They didn't say the razor didn't matter. In 1938 some of the blades were crap and none were stainless. Scans of that article are posted somewhere at the forum but I can't find the post. Here's the introductory paragraph,
That was my intended plan with the R41. I wanted to directly test it against my Fatip Grande ATG first pass. On my last shave with it and a second use Feather blade, it bit me twice at random when I didnt expect it too and didnt think it should have. My Grande has never drawn blood at random and hasnt made me bleed in at least 6 months of use.
One of the largest issues I have with the R41 is the fact that its cast. It is far from precisely made.
See my post and pictures highlighting the issues with mine below;
The base plate design and how the blade is supported is essentially the same as the typical EJ/Merkur type head. The R41 has a hybrid safety bar and more exposure, but its the same basic design.
"It's aggressive, in terms of doing damage, but the efficiency is not commensurate with its aggression in my opinion."
That is exactly it. Thats how 'aggressive' is defined in my mind. An efficient razor isnt necessarily aggressive and an 'aggressive' razor isnt necessarily efficient. Either, can be used aggressively. I use all of my razors aggressively, but none are 'aggressive' razors.
In my opinion, floppy blades are what makes a razor act aggressively. One thing the Fatip family are not.
My R41 is far from precisely made too. It might have thick, pretty plating, but that hides a lot of flaws.
Notice the amount of flex thats only at the outside of the razors head. The blade is tight against the center 4 teeth.
The center of the base plate is bowed outwards.
Neither side of the base plate is straight and/or square.
The top of the base plate, where the blade sits, isnt flat and will rock side to side on that straight edge!
That says it all for me. By comparison, my Grande is a finely machined work of art.
Look at those pictures and think about how thin and flexible DE blades are. Translate that into how that razor might behave when it encounters resistance from stubble. Unpredictably, in my experience. My Grande by comparison is 100% predictable. It will not make me bleed unless I do something I shouldnt, and I did for my first 7 shaves with it and very rarely since.
I dont think all Muhle R41 razors are like that. I think some may be better and some may be worse. I do however believe they will all have casting flaws and none will be dead straight or square. You can only ask for and do so much with a poorly made tool. No matter your skill level, the weaknesses will become apparent in time and under the right circumstances.
Thats pretty much it. No one can dictate what will give someone else their best shaves. We need to find that on our own. At the same time, haranguing someone over their own personal choice is pointless and unproductive.
Blades are a key aspect.
The first blade I use in a new razor is and always has been Derby Extra. They might not be the sharpest, but they're sharp enough and more than smooth enough. All of my razors but the R41 are rigid designs. Derby Extra, the pre 2015 or 2016 version whichever it is, is in my top 3 blades of over 30 types tried.
In my Grande they give me a fantastic shave in 2 1/2 passes. The same post shave feel and the same level of BBS as Gillette Yellow and Polsilver give me in 1 1 /2 passes done entirely ATG. The Derby blade doesnt have the cutting power to go first pass ATG, so it needs one pass WTG/XTG first, one directly ATG and then one light clean up over my swirls.
First shave with my R41, and the Derby Extra was barely usable and a very poor choice. The difference being, how rigidly the blade is held.
My first R41 shave report below;
Muhle R41 first shave.
I've already made a post about this razor head @Raven Koenes was kind enough to send me so I wont go back over what I've covered below.
R41, Common Bar handle - Derby Extra.
Stirling Island Man.
Maggard synthetic.
49 hours since last shave.
Starting with the typical 3 pass shave, first pass N-S WTG/XTG. Second pass S-N XTG/ATG. Third pass and all cleanups done directly ATG.
Like I said in my first shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra, as soon as the razor moved I knew.
It tugged, considerably. No effortless full length strokes on this first pass. Two strokes over my cheek to my jawline and 4 strokes from my jawline to the base of my neck. Interestingly, as soon as the blade encountered my swirls, it skipped right over them, even leaving lather in the stubble. An adjustment in technique solved that however. I went a little shallower and increased the pressure considerably. That ended the skipping and minimized the tugging.
Rigidity doesnt make a shave more effective? I very much disagree.
Second pass S-N and still some very light tugging but not an issue and honestly, smooth sailing. Comfortable and easy. I buffed around my chin the same as always, a little over my swirls and even changed direction, painting lather with the comb and shaved over both swirls the opposite direction keeping to a shallow angle. No issues.
Third pass directly ATG, angle leaning more to neutral and steep than shallow now. Again no issues, nice smooth easy shave, very light buffing over my jawline both sides and my swirls again.
Wipe and check and not quite there yet, so I did one more clean up pass and finished with a very nice and comfortable BBS shave. No irritation or redness at all and my skin is cool and comfortable.
Now I'll say, Derby Extra is not a good match in this razor and using it has cemented what I've said numerous times about the many people that have tried them and dislike them. Use them in a rigid design! It makes a difference.
Using the same blade in my Grande its a 2 1/2 pass BBS. No tugging, no skipping. The difference in blade exposure between the two is minimal.
Not only does it make a difference with Derby Extra, but it does every other blade I've tried as well.
Rigidity. Makes. A. Difference.
Now I will also say, a sharper blade may very well eliminate the tugging and skipping I experienced, but at the same time, wouldnt a more rigid design also elevate that blade too? Yep, it would.
Theres another aspect of blade choice that I've noticed with rigid designs. If the blade lacks even a little sharpness or ease of cut, the more rigid the design is, the tighter the blade is held, the less it can flex. That translates into tugging.
This was my analogy of a cars suspension. Something has to give. If a poor choice of blade is chosen, either the blade will flex, or the hair will be pulled, or both. Because the most rigid designs do hold the blade in such a firm static position, if it lacks sharpness, tugging is the result. If the blade can flex, even a little, thats the suspension in my analogy at work and the blade cuts under stored spring energy.
I've tried nearly 30 different types of DE blades in my Grande. I have a top 5 and a top 3, but only two will let me shave directly ATG first pass. Polsilver and Gillette Yellow.
Blades matter. How aggressively you use the razor makes that difference much greater.
Absolutely - blades definitely matter.
But since shaving involves many variables, it's hard to tease out the variables that matter to an individual shaver. When I shave, I habitually control for a number of variables that work for me:
1. Pressure - should be as light as possible
2. Blade - blunt blades are to be avoided, as well as certain pretty good blades, oddly....
3. Lubrication - I'm certain that many DE shavers still don't lubricate their faces long enough; two minutes is a minimum for many shavers
But then there's a variable that's less quantifiable. Some beards are really, really tough. It doesn't make sense to assume that all beards are the same.
No it does not. The variables are as many as there are people that shave. What may work for one, may not and quite likely wont work as well for many others.
The most surprising thing I've found recently is how much a difference using a soap that agrees with me can actually make.
Using the same razors, all rigid designs, with Feather blades from the same 100ct carton with soaps such as Tabac, White, Green and Red Proraso, 14 different Stirling soaps, virtually all of the Captain's Choice soaps and creams, Nivea Sensitive cream and maybe one or two I cant remember, across the board in 12 different DE razors, Feather blades have been harsh and uncomfortable blades for me. None of those are poor soaps. All are actually very good soaps, but they arent the best for me.
Not long ago I ordered and have since used for every shave until yesterday, Pre de Provence 63. On the very first shave with a fresh Feather I felt absolutely no harshness at all. Something in that soap really agrees with me. I was amazed. Using that particular soap, Feather blades have become my preference. I never thought that day would come.
Yesterday was my first shave with Wholly Kaw. I didnt use a Feather, I used a fresh Polsilver in my Grande. I'm normally a shallow angle shaver, extremely shallow even, but yesterdays shave was done completely steep, even buffing. Not once at any point in the shave did I feel the blade, even when using considerably more pressure than I generally might. With Polsilver blades I usually do feel the blade until the 4th shave, then it becomes transparent.
Wholly Kaw is just as good a performer for me as PdP 63 and I very much doubt I'll feel any harshness from Feather blades with it.
I have to agree on the Karve and the RR Wunderbar, extremely rigid.
Then I read the B&B articles about the SLOC (Self Lubricating Open Comb) While I admit I do not like Open Comb Razors, I decided to read all the articles to find out about what they were talking about.
I have been an extremely firm believer in the pursuit of the most rigid blade as to this point Rigid Blade have cause me the least grief and provided the maximum comfort.
Then I followed through on the R41/SLOC combination.
Now I have a problem, the R41 and all its clones and copies, improvements is anything but rigid.
Plus the R41 and its family are extremely aggressive.
Add the SLOC topical and suddenly the world changes.
So not to put a damper on the Theme and Desire for Blade Rigidity as I am a believer however the SLOC concept also deserves or may add a dimension to the pursuit of the Blade Rigidity.
Personally I would love to see RR create a SLOC Topcap for the Wunderbar and like the Global Shave Club 41+ create a sudo Open Comb on top of the Solid Bar. IMO this would be as close to perfection to blade rigidity and a SLOC smooth & close shave.
Thanks for Listening
This is a really good and worth while thread
I was trying really hard to make the Muhle R41 my go to razor because it always gave me a BBS shave. I even mastered using it and had very few nicks. But it was always a chattering, scraping type of shave experience.
Surprisingly, I did not find the Mühle R41 to be the blood inducing horror that some people described. I got one last Thursday and have used it with Gillette Silver Blue blades. I got an extremely close yet comfortable shave with it. I didn't feel any sting from the alum block or the aftershave, yet I got the closest shaves ever.
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Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Which Fatip would you recommend for the best blade support? I'm also considering a NEW SC and Timeless. I also really like Charcoal Goods but don't know how good it's blade support is.
All Fatips support the blade fully with virtually the entire baseplate.
A NEW SC is a very good choice. I'd also suggest a NEW LC. That way you can use and understand both. The NEW SC is an extremely rigid design and the NEW LC is a less rigid design.
The best advice I can give is to use razors on each extreme and narrow down which better suits you. Once you understand that, you can make a very good guess before spending a large amount of money on something when you're unsure of its performance.
Smart idea to go with something less expensive starting out. I'll start out with either a NEW SC or Fatip and see how it compares to my Karve. Thanks for the advice!
Have a Fatip Piccolo on the way from Maggards. Looking forward to comparing it to my Karve with OC C plate.
I'll be interested in reading your thoughts on it.
The test will be going atg on my cheeks and upper lip. I have to be careful with the angle on the Karve or it chatters leaving me with irritation. I don't have a particularly heavy beard but the whiskers I do have are thick in diameter.
I was examining my Karve earlier and it almost supports the bottom of the blade all the way to the lip of the cap, but not quite. My camera isn't the best but I've included a photo below. Not sure how much difference the Piccolo will make but curious to find out.
Attachments
The Karve is design I like. If I got along better with blade gap, I might own one.
Using a Fatip you'll be more aware of the blade, so bear in mind angle of use is important and you can use it at any angle. Focus on hearing the blade cut while feeling as little blade as possible.
It also has much less blade gap. That translates to improved smoothness to me.
Having thicker harder to cut growth means blade choice can be more important.
I've been using Feather blades so far. I wanted to get used to the razor with just one brand of blade but it may be time to mix it up. I've got a selection of blades and @Earcutter even sent me a few unsolicited. B&B has some great members!
I really like Feather blades. I just wish I could get more than two shaves per blade lol.
Try some PolSilver SIs.
