The SE2 is the ATT SE2, which is the open comb version of the ATT SE1! They take Artist Club blades. It's not an injector! ATT is short for Above the Tie...
Razor design and the importance of blade rigidity
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The SE2 is the ATT SE2, which is the open comb version of the ATT SE1! They take Artist Club blades. It's not an injector! ATT is short for Above the Tie...
You're on the right track!
I started out with all kind of DE razors almost 5 years ago. Migrated to extremely rigid DE razors, and now only use SE razors.
I never had a big problem with razor bumps, but I did get them. I don't get any razor bumps with SE razors. The stiff SE blades, particularly the GEM SS PTFE and Schick Proline AC blades, cuts my stubble clean and they don't grow into my skin.
The razors I like are karve d and e and my RR wunderbar and also my new sc. Are the schick injectors a ridge design. If se razors are very ridged then I guess I will have to try one or probably many. Thanks.
Happy shaves
SMURF
SE razors are rigid because the blade is thicker, .004" for DE blades, and typically .009" for SE blades.
Schick injectors are very rigid and excellent razors. GEM razors are excellent, I prefer the Micromatics, particularly the OC.
The ATT SE1 is my favorite Artist Club blade razor. There a number of different AC razors with different levels of efficiency.
There are SE razors I don't like, that others like, as always, you'll have to jump in and get your feet wet.
You can't go wrong with an injector but I like the ATT SE1 with Schick Proline blades better than injector, both will get me BBS smooth, the SE1 results last longer.
I find the NEW SC and MMOC about the same as far as efficiency. The SE blades are easier on my skin than DE blades.
I haven't used any of the other razors you mentioned and don't use DE razors anymore.
Thank you sir for all the great information. I am sure I will do more than just get my feet wet. Anything that will help with the bumps and redness I am all about trying.
Happy shaves
SMURF
All this information is new to me, and makes me curious what injector razors feel like.
But I'm curious about something: if you use near-zero pressure, would jitter even be an issue? Jitter usually happens if your blade is blunt, or if you aren't using sufficient lubrication. If not, is an injector or SE razor necessary? I'm unexperienced in this area, so I'd like to know what the issue is. Thanks!
But I'm curious about something: if you use near-zero pressure, would jitter even be an issue? Jitter usually happens if your blade is blunt, or if you aren't using sufficient lubrication. If not, is an injector or SE razor necessary? I'm unexperienced in this area, so I'd like to know what the issue is. Thanks!
There's a difference between theory and application. My best shavers are in no particular order:
Merkur Progress/Mergress
Timeless 68/95
Gillette Aristocrat 46/47
The Timeless locks up a blade like a vise. The Progress or Mergress torques the blade over a central pillar.
In theory, I should get a much better shave from the Timeless, but in practice that isn't the case. All three razors I listed give me a great BBS shave.
I suppose if we were shaving steel wires mounted in concrete that reverse blade-flex might be a factor, but that isn't the case. In reality, a sharp steel blade encounters little resistance from human hair when applied at the proper angle. The Blackland Blackbird isn't a rigid design, but is almost universally praised for it's efficiency.
My advice is to try a few different designs and find what works best for you. I have, and for me the rigidity (although desirable) takes a back seat to efficiency in practice.
Merkur Progress/Mergress
Timeless 68/95
Gillette Aristocrat 46/47
The Timeless locks up a blade like a vise. The Progress or Mergress torques the blade over a central pillar.
In theory, I should get a much better shave from the Timeless, but in practice that isn't the case. All three razors I listed give me a great BBS shave.
I suppose if we were shaving steel wires mounted in concrete that reverse blade-flex might be a factor, but that isn't the case. In reality, a sharp steel blade encounters little resistance from human hair when applied at the proper angle. The Blackland Blackbird isn't a rigid design, but is almost universally praised for it's efficiency.
My advice is to try a few different designs and find what works best for you. I have, and for me the rigidity (although desirable) takes a back seat to efficiency in practice.
Thats the thing, we're all different. We all have different skin and hair density, directions of growth, coarseness and hair composition.
How much rigidity one needs no one can say. Think of the blade flex like a cars suspension and the area shaved the road. A super stiff suspension like in an F1 car(Timeless) might not give the most comfortable shave(ride) and it may be a case of diminishing returns in regards to rigidity. Maybe someone would be better suited to the suspension in a Corvette, or Toyota Tercel. That relates to shave comfort, not efficiency.
The aspects that I believe contribute to efficiency are gap and blade exposure. The more blade exposure a razor offers, the closer it can shave. As gap increases, the angle of blade edge to skin increases allowing for a more effective and efficient cutting action as the skin passes through that gap. A more 'aggressive' shave. How ones skin is affected by that added aggression, I can only speak for myself. Personally, the less gap a razor has, the more comfortable the shave is.
A post war tech is a very rigid design. The Gillette Old Type is a very rigid design. The Old Type is more efficient, for me at least. Mainly because it has more blade exposure.
The Gillette NEW SC has been referred to as an "Old Type with blade gap" and thats pretty much exactly what it is. Mine are equally efficient giving me the same BBS shave with a Polsilver in 2 1/2 passes, but because the SC has .023" gap, my Old Types are the more comfortable razors to use.
To make them equal in efficiency however, I use my Old Types with more pressure because the gap in the NEW SC makes it more effective if the same amount of pressure is used with both razors. I also use my Old Types steep and my NEW SC neutral to shallow. Its all in finding the comfort zone.
I have a made in England Old Type clone that feels exactly like my post war Tech in use. They both have similar blade exposure, but because the clone has an OC its slightly more efficient. The added efficiency translates into 1 to 2 less cleanups per shave with the clone over the Tech.
As far as rigidity vs efficiency, my Fatip Grande and R41 both have similar blade exposures and similar neutral design angles.
It really comes down to how one defines 'efficiency' I think. Given the both have generous blade exposure, they both give a very close shave. I find my Grande more efficient than the R41, by a great deal. First pass N-S WTG/XTG their efficiency is equal, but the R41 is a more cautious and technical shave. My Grande, completely secure and simple.
With the same blades in both, using the R41 I need to do 3 1/2 passes for the same level of BBS shave I can have with my Grande in 1 1/2 passes with those 1 1/2 passes done entirely ATG.
If the R41 was a more rigid design, I could shave directly ATG sooner. Because of the design of it, it can and has allowed the blade to flex and skip on my checks shaving N-S WTG and again even on the third pass which is done directly ATG. Using that razor I've changed to shaving in different directions on my second pass which is S-N. Normally with all my other razors, my second pass S-N is directly ATG under and up my chin and the sides of my mouth. I cant do that with the R41 and instead, on the second pass I have to shave W-E and E-W to enable to me to shave ATG on my third pass.
For me, simply because of the added rigidity of my Grande, its far more efficient. The R41 gives the same closeness of shave, but needs more passes to accomplish the same thing because its a less rigid design.
My whiskers might not be rebar but they are tough, and that difficulty is compounded by spiral growth patterns on my neck. Its difficult to shave WTG, XTG or ATG when the hairs are growing in a circle the size of a Silver Dollar. Using my R41, 5 different directions to BBS my swirls. Using my Grande, Old Types, NEW SC, and MMOC, two directions. Those areas are all about rigid designs.
Thats difficult to say. In theory I think, the more pressure applied of blade against skin, the less the blade could flex because its under more stress to keep it in contact against the surface of skin being shaved. Assuming thats accurate, the less pressure applied the more the blade would be allowed too flex.
The main variable there being the stresses imparted to the edge of the blade that would cause any flex by the amount of resistance the blades edge meets. Thats would be broken into two more variables, blade and hair type.
Assuming the blade is a match for the hair type and composition, theoretically, I dont see why there would be any blade flex. The blade would simply slice through the hair as it met it.
This is all about the resistance met by the blade as it contacts the hair. Even a scalpel will meet resistance as it slices overcooked pasta, just far less than it would cutting dry uncooked pasta. How much anyone may feel that as it translates to shaving only the one shaving can ever know.
I've only used two SE's and mostly only one, the GEM MMOC with GEM PTFE blades. Trying to compare the shaving efficiency, effectiveness and especially the rigidity of any DE I've used to the MMOC is like comparing golf to ice hockey. Two completely different worlds.
Great analysis!! I like the comparison of rigidity with a car’s suspension.
To me there is a time to pick a sports car with a rigid suspension for a windy country road vs. picking a larger car with a softer suspension for a long drive on the interstate. Both can be enjoyable!!
Great analysis!! I like the comparison of rigidity with a car’s suspension.
To me there is a time to pick a sports car with a rigid suspension for a windy country road vs. picking a larger car with a softer suspension for a long drive on the interstate. Both can be enjoyable!!
Thanks, and exactly!
Match the razor to the shave wanted. My favorites are my Grande, 1917 Single Ring and Brit clone. They all give the same shave with the same comfort level and BBS finish. The only difference, using the same blade in them all, is the efficiency and number of passes. 1 1/2, 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 passes.
That's a really insightful analogy and comparison.
I just got a GREAT first shave, that was also very comfortable and drama free, with the R41 I picked up on the BST. But it was disconcerting to complete the 3rd pass and still have some significant clean up. I'm sure some of it comes down to angle maintenance, but I did find myself going over my swirls multiple times.
The R41 got significantly closer, but my more rigid razors (Game Changer, Fatip) can provide a 1 pass shave ATG + clean up. I'm interested to see how many passes I can eliminate from the R41 because it really does shave close.
I believe rigidity is key for going straight ATG, but has anyone tried the 1 pass ATG with the R41? The blade exposure is less than what I thought it would be, so maybe the uniformity of the top cap would provide enough support?
I'm pretty much aligned with you on this, I'm not a lathe and the material and the speeds at which I'm cutting and at the angles in use would seem unlikely to perturb the blade with any negative consequence in any of my razors of varying designs.
Shaving forums deal with subjective values and we all have our preferences. If you're a rigid aggressive kind of guy -- well, I think the choice of words is telling as to what's going to appeal to you.
Would hate, though, to see some vendor's product besmirched as not being rigid enough.
Let's see, the Progress has been in production for six decades...the Wardonia somehow stumbled along for 30 years...I think that speaks for itself.
Consumer Reports came to the conclusion in 1939 that the razor didn't much matter, it's the blade.
Consumer Reports recommended the Fiat 124 too (not hating on Fiat I owned three).
Gotta linky? I think the razor frame matters a lot in a DE, not necessarily in ultimate closeness but certainly it defines the journey.
Gotta linky? I think the razor frame matters a lot in a DE, not necessarily in ultimate closeness but certainly it defines the journey.
[POLL] BBS or DFS
The majority of people don't care to get BBS or shave ATG. If I didn't care about those things, I could use any razor just fine.
I didn't know any thing about BBS or shaving ATG until I joined here. When I had issues shaving ATG, I was simply told "don't shave ATG" when in reality, not so rigid razors are not rigid enough to cut some of my stubble clean or smooth enough to even reach BBS.
Anyone that has ATG issues, I tell them to shim the razor they have or get a more rigid razor and their ATG issues disappear instantly.
If you get perfect BBS results everytime with any razor, I wish I had your stubble! I only get perfect BBS results everytime with rigid razors, so that's all I use!
I don't think anyone is besmerching anything. I think some are just expressing a preference for "rigid designs"...
Personally, I have thick, curly facial hair that also grows in swirls in certain areas. To top it off I have incredibly sensitive skin. So sensitive, I can pretty much only use unscented vegan soaps. For me, and the dumb luck of this combination of facial features, I tend to gravitate to "smooth" shavers that don't require a lot of passes.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Charcoal Goods, Wardonia, or a Blackbird to name a few "less supported" razors. I just know it's unlikely to be comfortable for me, a daily shaver, with a combination of skin and stubble that is (perhaps) less unique than I thought.
I like discussing (or watching the discussion of) abstract concepts of shaving like this. To be honest, it gives me food for thought.
@Hannah's Dad suggested I try the R41 a while ago. I didn't believe it would provide me with the type of shave I was looking for, so I passed - until I saw a deal I couldn't pass up. I tried it and I liked it. It's not the most rigid design, but it's cool.
@BigJ swears by rigid designs and his Wolfman. I have no experience with that razor, but his perspective is useful to those of us who haven't been "traditional wet shaving" as long. And to be honest, comparisons between the Wolfman and GC is what led me to my favorite DE so far.
I realize most shavers do not experience my set of issues, but for those of us that do... It's cool to have a place to read about other experiences and perspectives. That's all.
Happy shaves.
Personally, I have thick, curly facial hair that also grows in swirls in certain areas. To top it off I have incredibly sensitive skin. So sensitive, I can pretty much only use unscented vegan soaps. For me, and the dumb luck of this combination of facial features, I tend to gravitate to "smooth" shavers that don't require a lot of passes.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Charcoal Goods, Wardonia, or a Blackbird to name a few "less supported" razors. I just know it's unlikely to be comfortable for me, a daily shaver, with a combination of skin and stubble that is (perhaps) less unique than I thought.
I like discussing (or watching the discussion of) abstract concepts of shaving like this. To be honest, it gives me food for thought.
@Hannah's Dad suggested I try the R41 a while ago. I didn't believe it would provide me with the type of shave I was looking for, so I passed - until I saw a deal I couldn't pass up. I tried it and I liked it. It's not the most rigid design, but it's cool.
@BigJ swears by rigid designs and his Wolfman. I have no experience with that razor, but his perspective is useful to those of us who haven't been "traditional wet shaving" as long. And to be honest, comparisons between the Wolfman and GC is what led me to my favorite DE so far.
I realize most shavers do not experience my set of issues, but for those of us that do... It's cool to have a place to read about other experiences and perspectives. That's all.
Happy shaves.
I agree with your description of the cutting process. The blade angle and whether the skin has been stretched is more important. Blade gap is a more important characteristic. Just look at all the razors available with different dimension base plates. They could have made the mounting pillar wider just as easily. The manufactures chose to increase/decrease the blades gap instead.
MM879
