Questions on using a jnat

[Eastcoast30]

I have been honing a few months with Naniwa stones and have gotten decent results. I am now working with an Ozuku stone and some naguras. The stone I have originally came from TheJapanStone and is called out as Oozuku hard asagi tomae. The original post for this stone stated that it will work well with a tomonagura, a mikawa nagura set or a diamond plate. The stone is rated as: Hardness 9++, particle size 9+++.

I have a toma and I have a mikawa tenjyou and mikawa mejiro. I also have a two-sided atoma 400/1200. I find it very easy to raise a slurry with the naguras or the atoma. I also made sure the stone is dead flat. And the stone is 3" wide, so x-strokes, circles, etc are very easy. I set my bevel on a Naniwa 1k and then went straight to the Ozuku. I progressed through the naguras and finished on mostly water. My result was not great. The razor shaved, but it tugged. It did not treetop or pass HHT (I know those tests are not all that important). I made about 50 passes on a cordovan strop, with light razor pressure and good tension on the strop.

I'm wondering if I should go to my Naniwa 5k before going to the Ozuku? Or should I take it all the way to a shave ready edge with the Naniwas and then smooth it out with the Ozuku? And I am not sure when to move from one nagura to the other. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[1Speedster]

I set the bevel on a Shapton 1.5k and then spend time on a Shapton 5k before moving to my JNat finishers. Give this a shot and see what you think. While I have a full asano mikawa nagura set, I typically finish using only koma and tomo nagura.

 

[MasterOfPups]

I would go higher on synthetics until you get the hang of things. Make sure the bevel is completely set all along the edge. .Stay on each stone/nagura slurry until the blade easily undercuts the slurry all along the edge. If you have it, go to an 8k synthetic edge, then use the tomo on your ozuku. Work the tomo slurry until it is almost completely gone, and don't let it dry out or get thick in the process. After you get used to this, you can stop at a lower synthetic grit and add the other naguras to the mix.

 

[*stefan*]

Agree with MasterOfPups.

In fact you could use a synthetic honed shave ready straight and do just tomonagura on the JNAT. Then you know you working with a proper pre honed edge.

Honing with naguras can be joyful and it’s like have several hones in one by just adding small naguras. Nice to have and fun to use. You may prefer the edge from a full nagura progression but it is possible to get some awesome JNAT edges working just with tomonagura after synth progression.

Test stropping with clean linen before, rinse the edge unless you want linen in the mix.

Not just the amount of slurry but also the amount of water with the slurry matter, experiment

The feedback is different form synthetic, often the feedback gets less good for me the better the edge progress on JNAT.

Only do light laps but as many as you want with tomonagura. Don’t be afraid to test treetopping during honing but rinse the edge before returning to the hone.

Tree topping and HHT tells more about how keen the edge is than how sharp it is. The more force you feel pulling in the arm hair during cut the less sharp the edge is. If very keen usually also sharp but especially a natural progressed edge can be sharp even if it’s not keen.

 

[JohnEzra]

Jumping to Tenjyo straight from a 1K might be a bit of a stretch, depending on what 1K you're using, and how refined the edge off of the 1K is. I would probably suggest going to the 5K prior to jumping to the JNat. You could always go further before the JNat as well and then jump straight to Tomo Nagura, as that cuts out some variables and might make the learning process easier.

 

[Eastcoast30]

Great advice here! Thanks.

 

[alx gilmore]

I like John's advice and the others about going higher on the synthetic progression, and Stefan, I think he dunked it on the spot. Do your regular honing without the Jnat, get it shave ready and then turn it into a Jnat edge by fiddling around. Just a few strokes on a whisper of slurry with your tomo and strop and shave with it as Day 1, or a half of a shave. For Day 2 go back to the synthetic and get that edge again and try a few more strokes with the Jnat or fewer and see where you end up after a shave. There is nothing like familiar territory. The synthetic is yours and exploit your comfort zone by going there first and tuning up with the Ozuku.

Alex

 

[Eastcoast30]

I'm glad this forum is here to help. I went back to the Naniwas and took it to 5k. Then to the Ozuku with the nagura progression. I dinished with very light strokes on very thin tomo slurry. I applied no pressure, just using gravity to keep the blade on the stone and under the water. Everything felt right. But I still could not pass HHT with hair from my wife's brush. Well, everyone's hair is different. I went back to my forearm and the blade was treetopping quite well. So that is very encouraging. I will shave with this one tomorrow and see how that goes. I'd like to get this one treetop sharp on the jnat, but that may not be an option. But now that it is treetopping, I know it is sharp. And I can just go back to the Ozuku to see if I can refine further.

For sure, I like what alx gilmore has to say!

 

[buca3152]

Most ozukus (I've had several as well as having worked on several others at meetups) will take a long time to fully breakdown a slurry. They are however imo great candidates to use with a diamond plate generated slurry after a 5k or so.

 

[alx gilmore]

Stropping technique could bring your blade to the next level of keenness. Do your final strop passes with the same light touch as your last session of honing strokes. Keep in mind that your edge, that 10 micron piece of steel at the very edge is fragile, it will stand up to your beard hair, but you can screw it up with radical strop strokes. I feel that razor honing is 50% percent skill and 25% stone/steel. That last 25% is where the magic is. You can quote me on that.
Sounds like you are on the right track. Also try turning your hair sample around, you can get different results from root in or out.

Alex

 

[Eastcoast30]

Stropping technique could bring your blade to the next level of keenness. Do your final strop passes with the same light touch as your last session of honing strokes. Keep in mind that your edge, that 10 micron piece of steel at the very edge is fragile, it will stand up to your beard hair, but you can screw it up with radical strop strokes. I feel that razor honing is 50% percent skill and 25% stone/steel. That last 25% is where the magic is. You can quote me on that.
Sounds like you are on the right track. Also try turning your hair sample around, you can get different results from root in or out.

Alex

Agreed, definitely!

 

[Frank Shaves]

As someone who is also learning their way around stones, I have been honing my razors on my Naniwa 12k before going to my Ozuku for two reasons: to make sure I have a good edge, and so I can compare the Ozuku finish with the synthetic gold standard. I find that a good, smooth finish from the Naniwa is pretty comfortable and then the Ozuku cranks up both the sharpness and the smoothness.

I will also throw out that my German razor usually feel pretty sharp coming off of the stone. Then I honed an Erik Anton Berg the other day that just did not feel that sharp coming off the 12k but then after 50 to 60 laps on the leather the edge became quite sharp, so it seems as if some steel just need more stropping to come alive.

 

[Tomo]

I have a similarly described stone from JNS. I now get very sharp edges from it but it took some practice.

I first get the edge as sharp as I can before going to the Jnat. Either off of a 8000 Shapton Glass or 1um lapping film. I only use the Jnat as the final finisher.

I use a 1200 Atoma to raise the slurry. With the tomo I need to be more careful not to scratch the stone. The 1200 Atoma leaves the stone flatter too.

The amount of slurry makes a big difference for me, less is more. I find a heavy slurry dulls the edge. Plain water gets very sharp but it starts to loose the Jnat smoothness. My best edges come from a super light slurry. So light that you can’t even see it. I do a few laps with the 1200 Atoma using very light pressure and call it good. I believe the light pressure is key as it releases smaller sized slurry particles. I can hear the Atoma working but can’t see the slurry in the water yet. That seems to be the right amount of slurry for my particular stone. The result is sharp and smooth.

I also like to add a little dish soap or shaving cream to the water on the stone. Just the tiniest amount. The soap cuts the surface tension, aids the undercut and adds lubrication. The soap helps me to maintain a nice smooth stroke that doesn’t stick or jump. It also helps me achieve a nice light, even pressure on the stone.

I use a few different strokes. Straight on edge leading, heel leading, toe leading, x-stroke, pull stroke, flip the stone a few times. Left handed, right handed whatever just mix it up. I generally avoid circles and spine leading strokes.

With the first strokes I put a very light torque onto the edge. No torque on the final strokes.

It took a while to learn the stone but that’s what ended up working for me.

 

[Eastcoast30]

I have a similarly described stone from JNS. I now get very sharp edges from it but it took some practice.

I first get the edge as sharp as I can before going to the Jnat. Either off of a 8000 Shapton Glass or 1um lapping film. I only use the Jnat as the final finisher.

I use the 1200 Atoma to raise the slurry. With the Tomo you need to be more careful not to scratch the stone. I think the 1200 Atoma leaves the stone flatter too.

The amount of slurry makes a big difference for me, less is more. I find a heavy slurry dulls the edge. Plain water gets very sharp but it starts to loose the Jnat smoothness. My best edges come from a super light slurry. So light that you can’t even see it. I do a few laps with the 1200 Atoma using very light pressure and call it good. I can hear the Atoma working but can’t see the slurry in the water yet. That’s the right amount of slurry for my stone. The result is sharp and smooth.

I also like to add a little dish soap or shaving cream to the water on the stone. Just the tiniest amount. The soap cuts the surface tension, aids the undercut and adds lubrication. The soap helps me to maintain a nice smooth stroke that doesn’t stick or jump. It also helps me achieve a nice light, even pressure on the stone.

I use a few different strokes. Straight on edge leading, heel leading, toe leading, x-stroke, pull stroke, flip the stone a few times. Left handed, right handed whatever just mix it up. I generally avoid circles and spine leading strokes.

With the first strokes I put a very light torque onto the edge. No torque on the final strokes.

It took a while to learn the stone but that’s what ended up working for me.

Thanks, I like your ideas.

 

[Tomo]

Thanks, I like your ideas.

It takes a bit of trial and error to dial these stones in but it’s worth it. A well executed Jnat edge is a beautiful thing.

 

[lightfoot]

I generally aim for good tree-topping at 5000. If it isn’t happening I know that there’s an issue somewhere between bevel set to 5000. Also if the natural slurry starts to dry out that can also send the edge backwards. Thanks

 

[Eastcoast30]

I generally aim for good tree-topping at 5000. If it isn’t happening I know that there’s an issue somewhere between bevel set to 5000. Also if the natural slurry starts to dry out that can also send the edge backwards. Thanks

That's good to know.