Questioning Everything | One Superior Edge | One Superior Shave

[Twelvefret]

I've used the same razor previously finished on a Thuringian for the past three days. Each day the shaves get better since I went back to a .5 and .3 film followed by 200k diamond. I also added in a chromium oxide pasted suede process intermittently. And, I hand strop between passes. It's fun to experiment. I changed things up last night by stropping on linen and horse only.

I cannot decide if I want to go another day on the same razor or use another one from the collection.

You use the term method edge and perhaps you've heard that used somewhere. I don't consider films or film, stone, paste to be any more of a method than using a similar progression with stones. You still have to set the bevel first. Everything else is whatever you choose or are forced to do to get the quality results you prefer.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I like how this thread has blown up. In the end there is nothing else to do but discuss razor steel and honing haha. Going back to the original post: I am still wondering if I can duplicate this experience, to shave with an edge that seems to be so far beyond my current best effort that I would be truly impressed. I think there is no better test than when one individual, with all his habits tries a new edge. I am setting myself up for a similar experience as the OP. I want to more or less max out what I can do at the moment with my stones and shaving technique. After, I will go for a diamond paste level refinement, similar to the edge that baffled the OP (I will use 'the method' for this).

Today I felt I am close to the limit of my current equipment. I had an amazing shave from my best razor (Zertone, cheap Chinese stuff, but a step up from Gold Dollar, check it out), that has only seen a chosera 1k, a BBW and the 'amazon tsushima'(dry honing on this one!) and of course leather. Zero irritation and quite smooth I dare say baby smooth in large part and where it isn't largely my technique is to blame. Much better than I can do with a shavette and in the beginning I could only get decent shave with a shavette. I don't think I can do much better than this (and by the way, my honing process is exactly like Jim describes it: I just hone until I'm done in a zen way), so now I feel ready to go for a method edge. I will use the same razor. It will take me some time to assemble everything I need (also going on vacation now), but I really look forward to experiencing that first shave with it! Will it be like the shave that started this thread?

The vendor (see post #1 in this thread) honed a razor sharp enough to establish a higher standard for me. Most razors I was already honing myself weren't very far off that mark, but still the difference was significant. [The Herder I mentioned would be a very notable exception.]

I'm trying to get all my razors to the sharpest place they can individually be with the kit I have. Towards that end I'm refining their edges on the DCA until I don't see any improvement happening. Of course I want them to all be as sharp as the vendor's stuff. Some may not be capable of edges of that sort?

Will I add kit? Not if I can help it. But, if I need to I will.

It might be very interesting for you to try The Method. I've not used films myself but nobody says they don't work. Might blow your mind.

I'm sure there are all sorts of ways to go about this. Without experimenting some how would anyone know what's out there. I mean experimenting with sharpening methods and with edges produced by other people (who may be worse or better).

 

[Willem-Jan]

@Twelvefret :I am simply referring to what is known as 'the method' on this forum. I want to achieve the biggest possible contrast between my best stone effort and an edge that has been refined according to a well documented system. Instead of the method I might also go for the science of sharp, or heck, both. This way I want to gain a better understanding of the spectrum of possible edges, and what I want and what I need. Part of me is hoping, meh, it's not that much of an improvement, part of me wants it to be such superior shaves that I can't do with less anymore.
Nice that you are using the Zertone! Are the three days you talk about with the same edge, or one day with 0.5 then 0.3 and finalyy 200k?

 

[Twelvefret]

@Twelvefret :I am simply referring to what is known as 'the method' on this forum. I want to achieve the biggest possible contrast between my best stone effort and an edge that has been refined according to a well documented system. Instead of the method I might also go for the science of sharp, or heck, both. This way I want to gain a better understanding of the spectrum of possible edges, and what I want and what I need. Part of me is hoping, meh, it's not that much of an improvement, part of me wants it to be such superior shaves that I can't do with less anymore.
Nice that you are using the Zertone! Are the three days you talk about with the same edge, or one day with 0.5 then 0.3 and finalyy 200k?

Okay, brother I get it!! I've just heard a film edge referred to as a method edge as if it were different from a stone progression edge. At @steveclarkus says, "grit is grit".

Some here and other forums use a 20k stone. Some use 16k. So, they are using essentially a 1 micron film sheet. I'm just taking it a step further with the .5 and .3 mu films followed by chromium oxide or 100k and then .25mu diamond or 200k.

I'll add that I've been hand stropping between passes. I think I'm gaining an edge benefit. Using the same razor on consecutive days is educational. You'll experience the differences of what prep you've employed.

I will say that right now it's 14 hours since I shaved and the growth is surprisingly minimal. This is the same I've experienced with the GEM MMOC, one of the best all time safety razors.

 

[steveclarkus]

@Twelvefret :I am simply referring to what is known as 'the method' on this forum. I want to achieve the biggest possible contrast between my best stone effort and an edge that has been refined according to a well documented system. Instead of the method I might also go for the science of sharp, or heck, both. This way I want to gain a better understanding of the spectrum of possible edges, and what I want and what I need. Part of me is hoping, meh, it's not that much of an improvement, part of me wants it to be such superior shaves that I can't do with less anymore.
Nice that you are using the Zertone! Are the three days you talk about with the same edge, or one day with 0.5 then 0.3 and finalyy 200k?

One way to look at film, as it is rather inexpensive, is to view it as training wheels for stones should you decide Stones are the way to go. With film, you don’t have lapping considerations. The grit progression is exact. There is great consistency in the process and you quickly develop a a feel and touch for honing. All in all it is just simple and you are getting fine edges quickly without complications stones may present. All the skills learned on film are readily transferable to other methods. Films give a leg up and you have no serious financial investment to consider. Personally, I’m in it for the shave, not the honing, so I’ve always used film and diamond pasted balsa and likely always will because it just works.

 

[Biglo13]

@Twelvefret :I am simply referring to what is known as 'the method' on this forum. I want to achieve the biggest possible contrast between my best stone effort and an edge that has been refined according to a well documented system. Instead of the method I might also go for the science of sharp, or heck, both. This way I want to gain a better understanding of the spectrum of possible edges, and what I want and what I need. Part of me is hoping, meh, it's not that much of an improvement, part of me wants it to be such superior shaves that I can't do with less anymore.

If you are well experienced honer and are getting consistent sharp edges from 14K ish Stone..... Then I doubt the lapping FILMS will give you any dramatic improvement in sharpness. Feel/ comfort is a separate subject. the recent updates on the film “method” stop at 1 micron approx 14K. I think of films as a very consistent synthetic progression without buying and having to maintain multiple stones.

Where you will see advantage is with the diamond pasted balsa progression !!! 5 micron, .25 micron, 0.1 micron. Not on above chart but 0.1 diamond micron is approx 200,000 K. I think the progressive diamond pasted balsa method will get to what I think you are looking for. It should give you that A HA moment consistently. I’m only a 2-3x a week shaver I have razors that have not touched a stone since February, maintained with only diamond pasted balsa and leather. Not only does it take your edges to that next level, The diamond pasted balsas are a very good long term maintenance system that I feel is minimally destructive.

 

[Twelvefret]

One way to look at film, as it is rather inexpensive, is to view it as training wheels for stones should you decide Stones are the way to go. With film, you don’t have lapping considerations. The grit progression is exact. There is great consistency in the process and you quickly develop a a feel and touch for honing. All in all it is just simple and you are getting fine edges quickly without complications stones may present. All the skills learned on film are readily transferable to other methods. Films give a leg up and you have no serious financial investment to consider. Personally, I’m in it for the shave, not the honing, so I’ve always used film and diamond pasted balsa and likely always will because it just works.

That's what separates many of us here. It is not so much that honing is difficult. The difficulty stems from somewhere else. There is a prejudice that using films is not real honing or real edges.

The OP experienced something profound as well all of us have when deciding to move beyond stones. While I would love to try one of those 20k stones, I understand the 1mu film is close.

So, the question is, why wouldn't a person use 200k diamond paste? What would someone insist they must shave off a stone? I think it's part of the enjoyment of using stones and part a sense that stones are more traditional.

 

[buca3152]

That's what separates many of us here. It is not so much that honing is difficult. The difficulty stems from somewhere else. There is a prejudice that using films is not real honing or real edges.

The OP experienced something profound as well all of us have when deciding to move beyond stones. While I would love to try one of those 20k stones, I understand the 1mu film is close.

So, the question is, why wouldn't a person use 200k diamond paste? What would someone insist they must shave off a stone? I think it's part of the enjoyment of using stones and part a sense that stones are more traditional.

I've tried many things. Including very high grit paste, lapping film etc. I use what I use because I choose to based on my results. And when I used to hone a lot I found that stones are more accurate. Film loses its grit after a while. And that 1 micron film isn't 1 micron anymore. That's my take. Having said that, everybody should use whatever they like.

 

[Twelvefret]

I've tried many things. Including very high grit paste, lapping film etc. I use what I use because I choose to based on my results. And when I used to hone a lot I found that stones are more accurate. Film loses its grit after a while. And that 1 micron film isn't 1 micron anymore. That's my take. Having said that, everybody should use whatever they like.

Yes, I have heard this argument against films, that they loose something over time. I'm never going to have to use the 30, 12, and 9mu sheets again unless I find another razor to add to my collection or if I damage one I have now. I can use the Coticule and Thuringian as a substitute for the films if needed. The crucial factor for my use is the shaving edge which I can maintain inexpensively with low micron films followed by pastes and stropping. I would prefer having a 30mu sheet of 3m lapping film laying around than a 1k stone.

 

[buca3152]

Film losing grit and dmts losing aggressiveness isn't an argument for or against anything. It's just stating what happens and what people should expect. I personally don't care what anyone uses. But it is important imo that people know before they buy as much as possible to make the right choice.

 

[bluesman 7]

One way to look at film, as it is rather inexpensive, is to view it as training wheels for stones should you decide Stones are the way to go. With film, you don’t have lapping considerations. The grit progression is exact. There is great consistency in the process and you quickly develop a a feel and touch for honing. All in all it is just simple and you are getting fine edges quickly without complications stones may present. All the skills learned on film are readily transferable to other methods. Films give a leg up and you have no serious financial investment to consider. Personally, I’m in it for the shave, not the honing, so I’ve always used film and diamond pasted balsa and likely always will because it just works.

I agree with all of the above.

What I did not like about film is partly because the vast majority of my razor honing is on smiling razors. Since this is done with a rolling stroke, it creates funny wear patterns in the film after half a dozen razors or so. Easily cured by just changing out the film, but it did not fit in with my 'use it up' mentality. A freshened stone surface gives me an even cutting surface that is the same for each razor.

 

[Twelvefret]

Film losing grit and dmts losing aggressiveness isn't an argument for or against anything. It's just stating what happens and what people should expect. I personally don't care what anyone uses. But it is important imo that people know before they buy as much as possible to make the right choice.

It’s not been a problem.

 

[buca3152]

It was to me. And what I'm saying isn't unique as I've seen/heard the same from others. Buy a stone one and done works for me. I already tried and used up a lot of film which was wasteful and would.have been better spent on permanent stones. IMHO of course. lol.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yes, YMMV on all things...lol! I just have to maintain my small collection so, I’m probably an outlier.

 

[steveclarkus]

I agree with all of the above.

What I did not like about film is partly because the vast majority of my razor honing is on smiling razors. Since this is done with a rolling stroke, it creates funny wear patterns in the film after half a dozen razors or so. Easily cured by just changing out the film, but it did not fit in with my 'use it up' mentality. A freshened stone surface gives me an even cutting surface that is the same for each razor.

I can see that. Fortunately, I don’t have any smiling blades and have not had to deal with this situation. I have a Shapton 1k for setting bevels and a 12k Nani bit still prefer 1u film for finishing. The weak spot I seem to have in film is the 5k and I may get a 5k stone - I haven’t made a decision on that yet. My primary concern is just getting to 12k or 14k, regardless of method, to get to the balsa progression because, for me, that is where the magic lies. Once I finish at a 200k polish and do daily maintenance, I never have to re-hone a razor.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Today I shaved with one of my razors purchased from and honed by the vendor I mentioned in my opening post of this thread.

This razor is a vintage H.Diamond. All I've done is regular stropping.

The vendor reports having honed and finished the razor's edge this way - 1k, 2k, uchi, 5k, jnat prefinisher, jnat finish, .25 micron diamond, .125 micron cbn, then clean linen and leather strop.

My H. Diamond has a very very nice edge, but is it much better than the edges I've recently been getting on similar (Japanese and Torrey) blades using my own stones?

It might be that the vendor's edges are a bit better. It might be that they're such a small amount better that it doesn't really matter to me, but I'm all for as sharp as I can get things. So, I'm going to continue working to max out the edges of all my razors with a goal in mind of achieving the sort of edge the vendor's blades I've used have all had.

If need be I'll buy myself diamond and CBN and all that stuff, but I'm trying to also max out my use of the Double Convex Ark.

So far I've been very impressed with what I'm able to accomplish on the DCA, but the vendor's edge might be a smidgeon sharper.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Namkcakram]

That's what separates many of us here. It is not so

That's what separates many of us here. It is not so much that honing is difficult. The difficulty stems from somewhere else. There is a prejudice that using films is not real honing or real edges.

The OP experienced something profound as well all of us have when deciding to move beyond stones. While I would love to try one of those 20k stones, I understand the 1mu film is close.

So, the question is, why wouldn't a person use 200k diamond paste? What would someone insist they must shave off a stone? I think it's part of the enjoyment of using stones and part a sense that stones are more traditional.

Films are definitely real honing, they’re just not cost effective when you hone more than a certain surface area of steel. A stropped edge is not a honed edge, though... those are different animals from a purely objective geometric standpoint.

The biggest plus for films is they take the form of whatever substrate you put them on, so if you want flat you put film on something flat and If you want to hone the inside curve of a gouge you wrap film around a dowel. Other than that films are great but no reason to choose them over a stone.

 

[Twelvefret]

Films are definitely real honing, they’re just not cost effective when you hone more than a certain surface area of steel. A stropped edge is not a honed edge, though... those are different animals from a purely objective geometric standpoint.

The biggest plus for films is they take the form of whatever substrate you put them on, so if you want flat you put film on something flat and If you want to hone the inside curve of a gouge you wrap film around a dowel. Other than that films are great but no reason to choose them over a stone.

I have a relatively small collection of razors and I've honed all of them with a film progression. I experimented with a Thuringian and Coticule, but didn't find these edges as efficient as the .3mu film followed by diamond.

Jim's OP is insightful and I've repeated this several times. His vendor is in the business of selling razors being shave ready. He pretty much through everything he had to prepare the edge in such a way as to suit most men's beard. What I do not understand is why someone would purposefully insist on shaving off a stone of something better were available.

The last razor I honed was a 90 year old Salamander "Our Wedge". I used the Coticule and Thuringian between the films. The results were surprisingly good. I later added diamond, and it got that "smidgeon" better. Made it more efficient with each stroke of the razor.

I didn't suggest to choose films over anything. When a new member comes here they are overwhelmed with all the suggested stones and how the more experienced members us them. Have you ever read your posts with eyes of someone who has not idea what a jnat of slurry might be? The reason I am an advocate is simple, a new member can hone the first time and have success. And, if your interest is shaving, films offer an inexpensive way to ensure a decent shave once the technique improves.

That said, if you are honing professionally, films might/could/who knows could be more expensive, but I truly doubt it. A 20k stone is over $300. That's ten sets of films.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I didn't suggest to choose films over anything. When a new member comes here they are overwhelmed with all the suggested stones and how the more experienced members us them...The reason I am an advocate (for films) is simple: A new member can hone the first time and have success. And, if your interest is shaving, films offer an inexpensive way to ensure a decent shave once the technique improves.

I've not used films at all, but this is a good argument I think.

That said, if you are honing professionally, films might/could/who knows could be more expensive, but I truly doubt it. A 20k stone is over $300. That's ten sets of films.

You just defeated your own premise. Over time films become more expensive while stones become cheaper on a per use basis. I'm not sure where the curves intersect, but once they do film becomes much more expensive.

That's assuming of course that a guy isn't a jnat collector.

It's become obvious to me that I could get buy just fine with two stones.

1. A Chosera 1K (or some other bevel setting stone for fixing chips and such).
2. A Double Convex Ark.

That's a lot up front cost than a set of lapping film and all it entails, but the cost is still pretty reasonable.

I've now done up a good many razors with the setup I just mentioned. Sometimes I add a SS 3K but if I didn't have that stone it would not make enough difference to shake a stick at.

I could also do fine most of the time I think with my flat coticule and the DCA.

Whether using the films or stones the question then becomes what if anything to use after films or after stones? Maybe nothing. Maybe pasted or sprayed or coated something (balsa, nano glass, leather), but as mentioned this is actually enhanced stropping rather than honing.

Of course, honing can be edge trailing so there's that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

I've not used films at all, but this is a good argument I think.



You just defeated your own premise. Over time films become more expensive while stones become cheaper on a per use basis. I'm not sure where the curves intersect, but once they do film becomes much more expensive.

That's assuming of course that a guy isn't a jnat collector.

It's become obvious to me that I could get buy just fine with two stones.

1. A Chosera 1K (or some other bevel setting stone for fixing chips and such).
2. A Double Convex Ark.

That's a lot up front cost than a set of lapping film and all it entails, but the cost is still pretty reasonable.

I've now done up a good many razors with the setup I just mentioned. Sometimes I add a SS 3K but if I didn't have that stone it would not make enough difference to shake a stick at.

I could also do fine most of the time I think with my flat coticule and the DCA.

Whether using the films or stones the question then becomes what if anything to use after films or after stones? Maybe nothing. Maybe pasted or sprayed or coated something (balsa, nano glass, leather), but as mentioned this is actually enhanced stropping rather than honing.

Of course, honing can be edge trailing so there's that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

What is my premise as you understood it to be?

My point was a full progression of films is $30 while one stone representing a .3 film sheet is over $300. Given what I seen here, a full comparative set of stones could easily top $700 plus.