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Question on Coticule Terms

Another question from me on coticules as I save my pennies and am getting close to being ready to pull the trigger on a coti.

I hear 4 terms that are used most often with cotis 1)Fast 2)Slow 3)Soft 4)Hard. I thought I was getting a handle on how they were related: Hard stones sharpen slow but give crisper/sharper final edges. Soft stones sharpen faster but give mellower/less sharp edges.

Is this a correct general assumption or am I *** backwards ? Is there a general rule to coti hardness and speed of sharpening and final edge result ? If so please enlighten me.

I have already been provided by you fine gentlemen with a link to general characteristics of the different veins so that is not neccesary.

Thanks
 

Kentos

Wiped out at 25
I am pretty sure for most users a well executed edge on a coticule is similar regardless of the stone. Getting to that well executed edge is where the differences in coticules emerge. I only have a yellowish stone, and a la verte bout. The yellow stone seems to be more forgiving, but YMMV.
 
As a very general rule soft stones tend to release more slurry, therefore have more garnets floating around and cut faster. Because they auto slurry they can sometimes be a little harder to finish on.

Hard stones will not auto slurry as much, so they might cut a little slower, but can be easier to do the last water only stages with.

There are no hard and fast rules though. It depends on the individual stone.

Myself, I use a big fast stone for 90% of the honing, then a smaller slow stone for the last 10%. I could use the big stone for the whole thing, but it is just a bit easier using two.
 
Unless you are buying a "known" specimen there are no hard and fast (or should I say soft and slow) rules. If this is your first/only Coticule then those characteristics are somewhat pointless as hard/slow/fast/slow are relative to other Coticules. The best advice, IMHO, for your first Coticule is buy one, stay faithful to it, and have fun.
 
Thanks to you all for your clarification. Legion, your description is what my understanding is,excellent clarification.

I have been getting excellent results with lapping film but definitely looking forward to learning a coti. I love new learning curves and challenges.

Any thoughts on a select rectangular piece Vs. a bout for a first stone ?
 
Thanks to you all for your clarification. Legion, your description is what my understanding is,excellent clarification.

I have been getting excellent results with lapping film but definitely looking forward to learning a coti. I love new learning curves and challenges.

Any thoughts on a select rectangular piece Vs. a bout for a first stone ?

That depends on your budget. I find rectangles a bit easier to use, but they do cost more per square cm of real estate. You might be able to get more bang for your buck with a bout.
 
Thanks to you all for your clarification. Legion, your description is what my understanding is,excellent clarification.

I have been getting excellent results with lapping film but definitely looking forward to learning a coti. I love new learning curves and challenges.

Any thoughts on a select rectangular piece Vs. a bout for a first stone ?
Stones have mojo.

A nice long bout will get you more surface than a similarly priced rectangle.

That depends on your budget. I find rectangles a bit easier to use, but they do cost more per square cm of real estate. You might be able to get more bang for your buck with a bout.
Yep

Dont forget to finish on oil
 
i found a new coti from flea market 5*1" but very hard stone. i tried it with water and got a classic coti edge. then i tried with oil and got excellent edge.
 
I know there are folks that finish with oil on the coticules but I will admit, I'll never try this. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that over time it wont harm the stone. Plus if I want more from what the coti can give I'll just go with a finer stone.
 
I know there are folks that finish with oil on the coticules but I will admit, I'll never try this. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that over time it wont harm the stone. Plus if I want more from what the coti can give I'll just go with a finer stone.

Old Coticule labels say you can use them with oil...
 
I vote we just go ahead and ban him for suggesting such a thing.

I didn't say anyone was wrong for doing so, one can do what one chooses with their stone. There are many ways to kick a coti edge up a notch or two if it is lacking, oil's not the only choice.

I personally can get a superb edge from the coticule's I have with just water.
 
For me, the oil has been of no help.
My guess its not for every stone.
i found a new coti from flea market 5*1" but very hard stone. i tried it with water and got a classic coti edge. then i tried with oil and got excellent edge.
Nice
I suppose you can do anything ya want, I choose not to.
Thats fine, we can just get along. Your stones, your razors-you can do anything you like. This is why I love this place, we can all agree to disagree-no one gets banned for a difference of opinions.
I vote we just go ahead and ban him for suggesting such a thing.
HAHAHA
 
you should try a coti with 100k/200k diamond spray.......


kicks oil in the nads..... incredible edges...

Do you have do anything special to remove the spray after or does a simple rinse work ? (Or do you just leave it on ?)
 
The "hard"/"soft" distinction seems to me to be a subjective matter. I'm not aware of any systematic tests that have been done on these stones to make any coherent determination on the matter. Additionally, I'm not convinced by the assertions made about the "hardness" of certain coticules, such as those from certain sublayers of the Grise layer. (For that sublayer, based on my experience, I'm more inclined to believe that what we see is actually a result of a large amount of fractures or interfaces that also cause the characteristic wood grain appearance. You'll also notice that the manner in which this sublayer breaks when hit is along these interfaces. Perhaps these interfaces play a different role in how steel abrades.) There are certainly coticules that seem to be glassier, which may be suggestive of a higher occurrence of some specific minerals (like quartz?), but I still think that there are many characteristics that are lumped into "hard" and "soft".

As far as auto-slurrying, much of it seems to occur when immediately after a coticule is freshly lapped. When the surfaced has become more smoothed after use, the ease with which the stone slurries when rubbed noticeably dimishes. This is one of the reasons why I do not recommend frequent lapping of coticules.

With oil, I certainly believe it can be helpful for some, especially those still in the earlier stages of learning these stones. For me, I do not find any difference in the resulting edge other than the ease and speed with which I achieve my final results. I do not believe using oil on coticules poses any appreciable harm, especially if one uses an oil that does not go rancid. Coticules are apparently not very porous. They do not gunk up like other stones do when oil is used for long periods of time. So the amount of oil they might absorb should be very small, especially if one cleans the stone after every use. Besides oil, other options that seem to aid finishing and add either cushion or some sort of glide between the blade and stone include lather, dish soap, gum arabic, wax, and hard soap. Oil is certainly the easiest of those choices.
 
For those of you who are scared to oil up their coti, I finished a razor the other day with a squirt of dish soap and water. Worked very nicely. I suspect you could get the same result doing your final strokes with lather.
 
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