Question about bevel setting

[thaekor]

First off a quick bit of background. I have been straight shaving for about 2 months now. I have touched up 2 different razors that were sent to me shave ready from Larry @ whipped dog. More to see if I could hone them to keep them as sharp as he initially sent them. Both of those razors have been fine. I also purchased a new Dovo Best Quality 6/8 that wasn't shave ready. Mainly because I wanted a) a blade that I would be the only one to hone period, and b) without any pitting/cosmetic damage to start with.

I am using a DMT Extra Fine (1200 grit or 9micron) stone to try to set the bevel. The side of the blade with the Solingen Best Quality etching facing up when on the stone, I can't seem to get a consistently even bevel on. The bevel tapers from the heel to a point about an inch and a half from the toe, and then back up on the toe. I am going to try to attach an image though not the greatest quality(smart phone camera) of what I am talking about.

The shiny reflection on the bevel side ends pretty much where the bevel tapers off the end of the blade. Then just on the other side, it picks back up and tapers toward the toe, where there is a 1mm or so deep bevel edge. I don't understand it.

Initially, I thought it was a problem with my DMT not being completely flat, so I touched up one of the whipped dog straights from here, up to a .03 micron lapping film. Even bevel all the way across. I also, tried this blade on 9 micron lapping film, to the same results. I can't see any blade bend or warp in the spine by naked eye, and if it were bent/warped I would think it would show on both sides, not just one. The other side has a consistent 1mm bevel all the way across. I can only assume it is something to do with my technique. I am trying to use as little pressure as possible to keep the blade edge completely flat on the DMT or film

 

[Big Nick]

It could just be that the grind is a little uneven on one side. If it's getting sharp, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Doc226]

It could just be that the grind is a little uneven on one side. If it's getting sharp, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I agree, I dont worry too much about the actual size of the bevel as long as it is getting sharp, granted I like a small even bevel but that is a function of the grind, spine and not really controllable by honing.

 

[LarryAndro]

Place the blade flat and motionless on the hone and slowly press straight down with more and more force. Move your viewing angle by moving your face. Is the blade deflecting any with downward pressure?

You might be surprised how many full hollow ground razor blades bend during honing. The above test will give you some idea whether this is occurring. When the bevel setting is taking longer than expected, the tendency is to bear down more to speed the job. Of course, this increases the chances even more that the blade will bend during honing.

Worth checking, I think...

 

[UPD]

^ I agree with Larry, you are probably using too much pressure where you're holding it near the heel, which is why the bevel is widest at that point and gradually tapers towards the toe. Hollow-ground blades will flex on the hones if you exert too much pressure, which causes the edge to deflect upwards off the stone and you're just creating a wider bevel without actually sharpening anything.

Try using less pressure and see if that doesn't fix the issue.

 

[CrotalusHH]

You could also use two hands. Use your finger on the other hand to place a _light_ pressure on the toe of the blade. This could even the pressure across the whole length.

 

[thaekor]

I have tried to move my face down to blade/stone level and tried seeing if the blade would deflect, and if it is, I can't detect it. It is possible I was using too much force. I was using 2 hands. I usually have to do that, just to offset the pull of gravity on the handle end, from pulling the toe up off the stone/film.

I have tried going back to almost non-existent pressure, and I can't feel that any material is being removed. It feels like it normally would, when I move up to the next step in film grit. Should I try breadknifeing and start back at the beginning?

Current bevel looks like:
Toe------____-------------------------------Heel

Can't seem to get a picture in focus, and this is as close as I can show in text. It tapers, down and then back up at the toe. This is with me using 2 hands, one on the heel/tang area, and the other on the toe, with a finger/thumb behind it for forward movement. The same way, I have touched up others.

 

[UPD]

I wouldn't breadknife it, that won't really solve the bevel issue.

Here's what I'd do:
-Add a layer of tape to the spine
-try a narrower hone

Could be the razor is slightly warped, I hate to think that DOVO would sell a warped razor though...

Is the razor shaving arm hair? Thumb nail test?

I'm not sure if your having a problem with just the appearance of the bevel or an inability to set the bevel and get it shaving.

 

[blademen]

This is what I do to set a bevel:
I start by taking the razor and running the bevel on top a glass.
Then I take a sharpie and mark the bevel from the toe end to the heel end.
Next I start using some half strokes and watch where the marker is cleaning up at.
If the marker is not cleaning up in some areas apply a tad bit of pressure, but not to much.
Follow up with some x strokes and try to shave some wet arm hair.
Take a eye loupe and see if you can see and black marker.


I agree with the other members that there might be to much pressure being used or the razor is warped. I have seen brand new TI razors and other hi end razors come from the factory warped or twisted.

 

[cb91710]

Could be the razor is slightly warped, I hate to think that DOVO would sell a warped razor though...

More common than you'd think.
I have an Astrale that has close to 1/32" of warp. The toe nearly touches the scales when closed, yet the spine is nicely centered.

Tried to get pics of it but I couldn't get the angle right.
Now after 5-6 months, my hone skills might be up to attempting to put a usable edge on it, but it was my 2nd/3rd blade purchase (bought it and the Bismark on the same order) and has sat un-used since last November.

 

[Gamma]

I've had a few blades that had an issue that caused something like what the OP is describing. I can't tell anything from the pix, because they're out of focus and without the blade in myhand I wouldn't know for sure anyway.
When I hone up a bevel, I use x-strokes with heel leading for a while, If working that doesn't clean up any existing bevel problems, I consider using rolling x-strokes to hit the bevel all the way across. IMNSHO - using tape will exacerbate the issue in that you'll have a partial bevel running along the blade, along with a partial micro-bevel running along the edge and through that original bevel. Personally, I would not be happy with that. Using a narrow hone can get you past the issue, but every time I've done that I've had to use rolling stokes anyway on the narrow stone too.
The sharpie trick will ID the spot where the problem is - altering your stroke will help get you past it.

 

[brother cavefish]

i had a blade awhile back that just would not sit flat, also "smilers" have to be manuvered as one hones, kinda rolled into the bevel-- also i use tape all the time, it helps put a smaller bevel, but i use thick USPS tape , its not as thick as electrical but thicker that just plain scotch, scotch would be my next choice never electrical (too thick) my 2 cents- tape solved alot of issues with honing, again i also put 2 fingers on the blade lightly, i am not one of those who rely on just holding the tang with one hand

 

[CrotalusHH]

Put a light close to the hone and watch the water as you push the blade across it. If the blade isn't contacting the hone all the way across the water not piling up in front of the blade tells the tale.

 

[Slash McCoy]

This is not an uncommon problem with new razors. In fact, with the current production entry level Dovos, it is VERY common.

If you manage to get a bevel from end to end on both sides, effortlessly, without applying special pressure or emphasis on any part of the blade, it doesn't matter too much that the bevel width is not equal at both ends and both sides. Just so that there IS a bevel and both sides meet properly. If you have to add special pressure to a particular part of the blade, you are opening yourself up to inconsistencies and imprecision in your honing technique. Try to let it come natural. Let the spine do its job of managing your bevel for you. Easy breezy on the pressure. Don't move up in your progression until the current stage has completely done its job.

The good news is that your problem will, over several years of use and honing, start to go away, to a degree. Eventually the spine and edge will wear in concert enough to give you a somewhat more consistent bevel width. It will never fully straighten itself out, but it will likely get a little better.

Oh, make sure that your shoulders or stabilizers are not riding on the hone. That will really mess you up. In extreme cases, you might have to grind part of the heel away. That's part of how we get Gold Dollars to hone and shave properly.

 

[cb91710]

Oh, make sure that your shoulders or stabilizers are not riding on the hone. That will really mess you up. In extreme cases, you might have to grind part of the heel away. That's part of how we get Gold Dollars to hone and shave properly.

I really have to watch that, especially troublesome since 3 of my 6 are shoulderless.

 

[Gerry_]

Just as a matter of information, when people refer to the shoulders or stabilizers on a straight razor are they talking about the same thing.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Just as a matter of information, when people refer to the shoulders or stabilizers on a straight razor are they talking about the same thing.

Properly, no. The shoulder is the drop-off where the shank transitions abruptly into the blade, and typically it goes down to the edge, resulting in a ridge of steel at the heel of the blade. A stabilizer is a second ridge structure bridging across the hollow of the blade, parallel to the ridge of the shoulder, typically 5/32" or 3/16" removed from the shoulder. I believe that is correct use of the terminology. But often, right or wrong, the terms are used interchangeably.

The problem is when either one intrudes into the honing plane, the imaginary flat bevel plane extended to infinity. When a shoulder or stabilizer intrudes, and it rests on the hone, the heel end of the edge does not get any or does not get full contact with the hone. Pressure is therefore transferred to the toe of the blade. So the tip ends up, on that side, with a wider bevel and the heel a narrow one, or one that does not extend fully to meet the bevel from the other side of the blade. Meanwhile, because of the skewed bevel plane on the first side, there is less steel available at the toe on the other side, so the bevel will be skinny on that side, and likely wider at the heel while still not meeting the bevel from the first side. If there is intrusion riding on the hone on both sides, then the toe of the razor wears more quickly and after a few years you start to get one of those blades like you often see on ebay, tapered, narrower at the toe than heel.

A temporary measure is to simply not hone the very heel end of the blade. However, normal hone wear will aggravate the issue and soon the protrusion is worse and you develop a frown. Both on the blade, and your face lol. The best edge is a straight edge. A smile can be managed. A straight edge is easier to get better honing results with. A frown is a big PITA.

Here is a possible fix, if that is your problem. I have done this when my Dremel was not available or I wanted the results to be more subtle. Tape the toe. Wind 5 or 6 turns around the toe of the blade. Yes, all the way around, spine and edge. This will keep the blade off the hone, except for the heel end. Then hone down the offending part vigorously with moderate pressure on a cheap, coarse carborundum stone. Keep pressure between spine and edge balanced. You don't want to dig a major gouge in the spine, but you do need to ensure that in normal honing that the spine doesn't have a thick spot that will ride on the hone, because this is your bevel guide, after all. Monitor your progress. Refresh tape as needed. Don't keep going when you got it good enough. Hit it a few dozen laps on a finer stone to remove the coarser scratches of your "power" stone. Remove the tape from the toe. Reset your bevel, hone normally. Verify that a too-thick stabilizer or intruding shoulder is your problem before doing this. The results might not be pretty, and no sense to ugly up a blade for no good reason. You can fair in your work with hand sanding and a final all over polish with 3u and 1u diamond paste, if desired. This procedure might have to be repeated a few years down the road.