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Question about Arkansas's

hard black fine Arkansas?

when I first researched these I read that grit estimations are all over the place. anywhere from 1200k to 4000k/5000k.

to make matters worse I've read in some places persons calling this a finisher?

so my question is.....? which is correct?

I was planning to use this for a progression of: 3k, 4/5k (ark), 8k, 12k, and then maybe 14k.

thanks for wisdom on this.

camo
 
I have a couple of Arkansas stones. I touch up on a small translucent chip. And I have a softer stone of some kind.

They work. Surface preparation plays a part in how they function. They are slow cutters, but I seldom need to hone my razors, so that is not a problem.

If I were sharpening for $, they would be too slow, I suppose. I hope this helps.
 
To clarify, the fi e Arkansas stone should make you happy, except perhaps for the cost. My experience is favorable, but I am not an expert honer.
 
Don't stick an ark in the middle of a synth progression.

Ark grit ratings are kind of meaningless. Norton rates their Translucents at 8k Mesh and basically says that their 8k mesh water hone is their alternative/replacement. A translucent will get you a finer edge on a razor than a 20k or 30k synth. Possibly with a heavy tool if you're really leaning into it, you're going to get an 8k (mesh, so ~4k JIS) edge out of a translucent, but frankly I think Norton just picked a number that was really high at the time when asked to assign something to the arks and have stuck with it since.


With a razor, you're not going to want to use a hard arkansas for progression work mixed in with synthetics. There's one guy who does/did a full ark progression... but based on my experience with the stones that'd be something more like:

Washita (0-4k grit), (Soft ark 4-6k), (Translucent 6k-10k+)... and quite slow for a razor relative to a series of synths from 1k-8k and then the translucent.

3k Jis to 8k JIs is fine, but if you want an interim stone, just get a 5k JIS to go in there... don't waste your money trying to fill gaps in a synth progression with naturals someone told you are this or that grit.
 
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Don't stick an ark in the middle of a synth progression.

Ark grit ratings are kind of meaningless. Norton rates their Translucents at 8k Mesh and basically says that their 8k mesh water hone is their alternative/replacement. A translucent will get you a finer edge on a razor than a 20k or 30k synth. Possibly with a heavy tool if you're really leaning into it, you're going to get an 8k (mesh, so ~4k JIS) edge out of a translucent, but frankly I think Norton just picked a number that was really high at the time when asked to assign something to the arks and have stuck with it since.


With a razor, you're not going to want to use a hard arkansas for progression work mixed in with synthetics. There's one guy who does/did a full ark progression... but based on my experience with the stones that'd be something more like:

Washita (0-4k grit), (Soft ark 4-6k), (Translucent 6k-10k+)... and quite slow for a razor relative to a series of synths from 1k-8k and then the translucent.

3k Jis to 8k JIs is fine, but if you want an interim stone, just get a 5k JIS to go in there... don't waste your money trying to fill gaps in a synth progression with naturals someone told you are this or that grit.

so maybe closer to the 12k chinese I already have.....or a possible choice for finishing???

thanks.

camo
 

David

B&B’s Champion Corn Shucker
@SliceOfLife didnt you do a video going from a bevel set straight to a hard or black ark to finish? Do you remember how long that took?
 
Yep, 12x3" Surgical black from DMT 1.2k to finish in about 7 minutes.

Very old video... that was 80 lbs ago... and a LOT of ambient trash noise, so probably mute it.


It definitely wasn't a maxed out edge, but it was a reasonable shave, no struggling or problems with ATG. In 20 mins (total), I could have maxxed it out easy.


Key caveats are DMT leaves a REALLY NICE 1.2k edge. It honestly looks cleaner from most angles than a lot of finishers (DMTs once worn in can be weird... a DMT -C leaves an edge that shaves better than Norton 8k, but is still obviously much, much faster)... and of course 36 sq inches is a lot of real estate... double the time involved at least if using an 8x2" stone.

Also, this technique uses varied pressure to essentially force the SB down into where it's cutting like a much coarser hone, then eases off the pressure to "stage" it like diluting slurry in Dilucot. It requires a degree of comfort with that much pressure, and good control. Watch the movement of the table to see the pressure changes.



That said, the same razor would take me 5-10 minutes, including switching plates and wiping them down if I stuck my DMT EE (8k mesh) stone in there. So 25-50% as much time.

That said, Yes you CAN do everything on arks (I wouldn't ever choose to bevel on one, but it's definitely doable on washita's and softs)... but there's absolutely no reason ever to go from synth to ark back to synth unless you literally have no other options... but even then, sticking a hard ark at the prefinisher stage just makes no sense to me... something more reasonable would be maybe 1k Synth to LWW or Soft Ark to 12k synth. That could work. Again, I'd rather use a DMT 8k there, but it's not THAT difficult to make the LWW work there.
 
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Best Sharpening Stones has an interesting write up on his/their evaluation of Arkansas grits. Worth a read.

I have a Norton trans 8x3. I‘m still learning (slowly) how to get the best out of it. I had to send one back to Amazon before I got a good one. If you go for a black, stick to a reputable vendor (or at least to vendors that will refund the $$).

So you’ve been HAD? I’m in remission until I find more time to work with what I’ve got. Some remodeling is about to shut down my honing bench for about a month.

Or maybe in remission until later today...
 
Yep, 12x3" Surgical black from DMT 1.2k to finish in about 7 minutes.

Very old video... that was 80 lbs ago... and a LOT of ambient trash noise, so probably mute it.


It definitely wasn't a maxed out edge, but it was a reasonable shave, no struggling or problems with ATG. In 20 mins (total), I could have maxxed it out easy.


Key caveats are DMT leaves a REALLY NICE 1.2k edge. It honestly looks cleaner from most angles than a lot of finishers (DMTs once worn in can be weird... a DMT -C leaves an edge that shaves better than Norton 8k, but is still obviously much, much faster)... and of course 36 sq inches is a lot of real estate... double the time involved at least if using an 8x2" stone.

Also, this technique uses varied pressure to essentially force the SB down into where it's cutting like a much coarser hone, then eases off the pressure to "stage" it like diluting slurry in Dilucot. It requires a degree of comfort with that much pressure, and good control. Watch the movement of the table to see the pressure changes.



That said, the same razor would take me 5-10 minutes, including switching plates and wiping them down if I stuck my DMT EE (8k mesh) stone in there. So 25-50% as much time.

That said, Yes you CAN do everything on arks (I wouldn't ever choose to bevel on one, but it's definitely doable on washita's and softs)... but there's absolutely no reason ever to go from synth to ark back to synth unless you literally have no other options... but even then, sticking a hard ark at the prefinisher stage just makes no sense to me... something more reasonable would be maybe 1k Synth to LWW or Soft Ark to 12k synth. That could work. Again, I'd rather use a DMT 8k there, but it's not THAT difficult to make the LWW work there.

thanks I'm actually hoping I don't have to use s lot the stones I have and plan on getting with time.

right now I have:

hard blk ark.

12k chinese stone which I like. will use for touch up.

3/8k jap. waterstone on the way.

and 14k film. will use for touch up.

camo
 
Who made the 3/8k? If it's a decent one, it'll be fine for most of your sharpening. If you ever need to bevel a razor, the 3k can do it, but it'll take a bit of time. As mentioned, you could stick a 5k in there, but it's not really necessary.

I would say a "complete" JIS synthetic set would be 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k (Where the 12k is a shave-ready finisher)... but you definitely don't need all that, and there's infinite ways to customize. Some guys like 600's, some like 2k stones. Barebones synth set for restoring eBay specials would probably be 1k, 5k, 12k... Those jumps are doable... but it all depends on personal preference and technique. The 3k/8k gives a nice spread of midrange workability, and should be shaveable (again if it's a decent quality JIS rated hone) but not a great shave. The 14k film will definitely finish it off to be a good shave, and the Ark (if it's a real hard... I'm not sure with how vendors label them these days) will too.

With razors I use: 600 (very rarely used for mass removal on razors), 1.2k (used regularly), 8k (Mesh, so 4k JIS), and then a ridiculous amount of stones as options for finishing. If I can't go to a finisher and quite easily finish off my 8k mesh, it's not a good finisher. If the Diamond plates I use didn't exist... I suspect I'd have wound up using 1k/3k/5k JIS hones to cover the same range my 1.2k and 8k DMT's cover. Maybe I'd throw an 8k JIS in there too, but probably not.

The Cnat will overlap with the hard black ark and if the hard black is good quality, the CNAT will not offer much the Ark doesn't do better. They should both be finer than the 8k... but again, that depends on their quality.

If you get the Cnat nice and flat, it could be a decent base for the film... never tried that personally.

The 14k film will probably be the way you're going to want to finish starting out until you're comfortable with the arkansas, and depending on the quality of the Ark may be the better finish overall.

Post pictures of the arkansas when it arrives.
 
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Who made the 3/8k? If it's a decent one, it'll be fine for most of your sharpening. If you ever need to bevel a razor, the 3k can do it, but it'll take a bit of time. As mentioned, you could stick a 5k in there, but it's not really necessary.

I would say a "complete" JIS synthetic set would be 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k (Where the 12k is a shave-ready finisher)... but you definitely don't need all that, and there's infinite ways to customize. Some guys like 600's, some like 2k stones. Barebones synth set for restoring eBay specials would probably be 1k, 5k, 12k... Those jumps are doable... but it all depends on personal preference and technique. The 3k/8k gives a nice spread of midrange workability, and should be shaveable (again if it's a decent quality JIS rated hone) but not a great shave. The 14k film will definitely finish it off to be a good shave, and the Ark (if it's a real hard... I'm not sure with how vendors label them these days) will too.

With razors I use: 600 (very rarely used for mass removal on razors), 1.2k (used regularly), 8k (Mesh, so 4k JIS), and then a ridiculous amount of stones as options for finishing. If I can't go to a finisher and quite easily finish off my 8k mesh, it's not a good finisher. If the Diamond plates I use didn't exist... I suspect I'd have wound up using 1k/3k/5k JIS hones to cover the same range my 1.2k and 8k DMT's cover. Maybe I'd throw an 8k JIS in there too, but probably not.

The Cnat will overlap with the hard black ark and if the hard black is good quality, the CNAT will not offer much the Ark doesn't do better. They should both be finer than the 8k... but again, that depends on their quality.

If you get the Cnat nice and flat, it could be a decent base for the film... never tried that personally.

The 14k film will probably be the way you're going to want to finish starting out until you're comfortable with the arkansas, and depending on the quality of the Ark may be the better finish overall.

Post pictures of the arkansas when it arrives.

thanks for the response.

already have the ark feels smooth to me.

20200501_190052.jpg


the 3k/8k shipped or on the way is a Tatara cheapie......but figured would work to start. like I said hope I dont need it.......but then again I keep eyeballing possible cheaper fixer uppers to practice/learn on.

I already have and experimented with 14k film briefly and like it.......but none of my razors has dulled yet. i did minimal laps on one razor to judge what it does to a blade. have also ran one razor on the chinese 12k that i like very much.

camo
 
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Not all black arks are created equal. There is a reason some manufactures list their blacks as being coarser than their translucents and another manufacturer has it the other way around. I have seen blacks that actually absorbed oil their surface was so porous. Surgical my .....
 
That ark looks pretty good to my eyes. I see what looks like some pockmarking from SIC flattening, but not an excessive amount, and that'll go away gradually with use.
 
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