Hello all. I’m new here. I’m just sitting around on New Year’s Eve trying to get a razor sharp. Or something. I wasn’t sure whether to post here or in stropping. I have a Dovo that plinks some hairs but when I try to shave with it it pulls pretty bad. I have a 1000/6000 king. An imperial laroccha, a home made strop. And I’ve recently been trying out balsa strops with 14000, 50000 diamond paste. I thought maybe I was getting a false edge. So I killed it then brought it back and it’s still pulling. I have a 10x microscope lense that I can look at the edge with and it doesn’t look too ragged. Any ideas, or advice?
Pulling Razor
- Thread starter None Ya Busines
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- Thread starter
- #2
Never Mind. I think I’m gonna do some reading here. Try to get some better magnification. I’ll put in some more work before I’ll bother y’all. Thanks though.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
There are a few problems you need to address.
What is your SR shaving experience?
Have you successfully honed a SR from bevel-set to shave-ready before?
Sounds like your initial bevel-set may not be good enough. You should be able to shave off a 6k if everything else before was done well.
The step from 1k to 6k is quite large. You would be better off including a 3k inbetween. Many find that steps of about two time (three times max) the previous grit to be ideal.
After your 6k, I would go to a 12k and then 20k diamond paste, 50k diamond paste, 100k diamond paste and finish on 200k diamond paste. You could stop as 20k.
What is your SR shaving experience?
Have you successfully honed a SR from bevel-set to shave-ready before?
Sounds like your initial bevel-set may not be good enough. You should be able to shave off a 6k if everything else before was done well.
The step from 1k to 6k is quite large. You would be better off including a 3k inbetween. Many find that steps of about two time (three times max) the previous grit to be ideal.
After your 6k, I would go to a 12k and then 20k diamond paste, 50k diamond paste, 100k diamond paste and finish on 200k diamond paste. You could stop as 20k.
- Thread starter
- #4
I basically have one razor that I use. A Dovo. I have others that I want to restore, but the Dovo is my first razor and I’ve been using it for about two years. It was a great edge from the factory, at least I think so. But what do I know? I’ve never used another razor honed by someone. The 1000/6000 is a new stone for me. I was just using the ILR and the home made leather strop. But have since brought in the 1k/6k and balsa with 14k and 50k paste. I feel like im right on the cusp of a great shave. But again what do I know. Im 52 and just starting to learn how to hone. I’ve never gone from bevel set before. I’ve always used the bevel that the razor came with. When I look through the microscope eye piece the edge looks consistent. Meaning it looks like my edge is making it all the way to the edge along the whole length of the blade. Thanks. I think it’s kind of dumb asking for help when I’m probably not sure what the Im doing. I need a scope that I can take some pictures with to post on here. Then maybe someone can tell me what I’m doing wrong. Until then it’s really just a guessing game right? But again thanks.
- Thread starter
- #5
I also have tried black marker on the edge to make sure I’m getting out there.
If you've been running on a factory edge, then you killed that edge after a lot of experimenting on pastes and whatnot, it's more than possible that you need to reset your bevel and hone through to finish.
A lot depends on what you did to 'kill it', how good it was before you were experimenting, etc.
If you are going to hone razors, it would be helpful to flatten your stones somehow.
The 1k King can be challenging to work with, it is slow, and soft, and if you need to do a lot of work then it'll need frequent lapping through the session.
You would be well served to get a practice razor to learn on so you don't put too much wear on the Dovo.
My POV - Keep it simple.
Learn to set the bevel well enough so you can manage a shave with it.
Learn that. Nail it. Do not move past this point until you can do that.
Then polish that edge with your 6k to remove all the 1k striations.
After the 6k work, you might want to follow with gentle use of a pasted strop. Go easy on that stuff. a few light passes. Not sure what you have but if it is 1 µm and then .5 µm maybe 5 passes on each, maybe - I'd say 2-3 each to start actually. Work up slowly, once you mess up you can't reverse it. If you do a few passes and it's not enough, do 2 more the next day.
Do not coat your strop with the diamond, a very light dusting is all you want to use. If you slathered it on already, scrape it off.
Follow that guide - you'll get there.
A lot depends on what you did to 'kill it', how good it was before you were experimenting, etc.
If you are going to hone razors, it would be helpful to flatten your stones somehow.
The 1k King can be challenging to work with, it is slow, and soft, and if you need to do a lot of work then it'll need frequent lapping through the session.
You would be well served to get a practice razor to learn on so you don't put too much wear on the Dovo.
My POV - Keep it simple.
Learn to set the bevel well enough so you can manage a shave with it.
Learn that. Nail it. Do not move past this point until you can do that.
Then polish that edge with your 6k to remove all the 1k striations.
After the 6k work, you might want to follow with gentle use of a pasted strop. Go easy on that stuff. a few light passes. Not sure what you have but if it is 1 µm and then .5 µm maybe 5 passes on each, maybe - I'd say 2-3 each to start actually. Work up slowly, once you mess up you can't reverse it. If you do a few passes and it's not enough, do 2 more the next day.
Do not coat your strop with the diamond, a very light dusting is all you want to use. If you slathered it on already, scrape it off.
Follow that guide - you'll get there.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
It takes perseverence and study to learn how to properly hone a SR. First you need to learn to set a proper bevel. A fool-proof way is given here:
www.badgerandblade.com
Then I recommend that you develop your honing technique using lapping films. You should be able to set yourself up for under USD 50. Instructions are found here:
www.badgerandblade.com
It's a long read but worth the effort and results. Take notes as you read. The method is developed through the thread so you will be changing your notes. Then read it all again to check your notes.
By your first or second attempt, you should be setting a proper bevel and refining to a very good shave-ready edge. It took me two goes. Others get it first time.
Don't worry about using diamond pasted balsa strops yet. They only work to further improve an already very good shave-ready edge.
Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method
The Burr Method of honing is perhaps the method of setting a bevel that is most easily understood perfectly. It is the most sure and positive means of setting a bevel, as the method itself is the proof. There is no guessing and very little subjectivity. It is fairly fast, and easy to learn for a...
www.badgerandblade.com
Then I recommend that you develop your honing technique using lapping films. You should be able to set yourself up for under USD 50. Instructions are found here:
Lapping film, try it.
I got some lapping film in a PIF a while ago, 4/8/16/30 equivalent grits. I use them on top of a lapped 8x3" hone, but any flat surface will do. They may not offer the sexy smooth feel of a big dollar hone, but man they are effective, and the edges off the "30k" film is not that unlike a $350...
www.badgerandblade.com
It's a long read but worth the effort and results. Take notes as you read. The method is developed through the thread so you will be changing your notes. Then read it all again to check your notes.
By your first or second attempt, you should be setting a proper bevel and refining to a very good shave-ready edge. It took me two goes. Others get it first time.
Don't worry about using diamond pasted balsa strops yet. They only work to further improve an already very good shave-ready edge.
- Thread starter
- #8
Thank you both for the advice. I will work on my foundation.
First post photos of both sides of the blade, for better advice. You should be able to get a good shaving edge from what you have now.
Lap your stones on a sheet of 220 Wet & Dry.
How were the shaves off the ILR?
Lap your stones on a sheet of 220 Wet & Dry.
How were the shaves off the ILR?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
The King combo stone is one that I really do not like at all. Some have used it with some satisfaction. I am familiar with the ILR only by reputation. It should serve as a finisher. Honestly if it were me I would throw it all out and start fresh.
The bevel must be unquestionably set. Without being absolutely certain that the bevel is set, there is absolutely no point in progressing to a finer stone. None at all. The bevel is the foundation.
Resist the urge to "kill" your edge again. Just hone. After lapping your 1k, set the bevel under running water. Hold the stone in hand. Begin with pressure equal to the weight of your arm. You shouldn't be far from having a bevel, depending on how severely you "killed" it. Try about 20 laps at that pressure. Then lighten up on the pressure to just the weight of your forearm. Go another dozen laps at that pressure. Go a dozen more with just the weight of your hand. Then the weight of only about a finger, plus the razor. Then the weight of only the razor. As you do this, try to get a feel for how the razor bites the stone, how the stone makes the razor stick to it, pulling back against the stroke. Hear the sound. Look at how the blade scoops under the honing water and leaves a dry area behind it. These feedback cues are what really tells the story, not lap count. Counting laps isn't really the way to hone. I am just giving you a sample program here.
A pull stroke is where, with the stone aligned normally, one end toward you and one end away from you, you lay the razor flat on the stone normally, crossways to the long axis of the stone, the heel of the razor right up there at the edge of the stone. Pull the razor directly across the stone, dragging it by the shank. Total distance is about 3/4". Very light pressure. Flip the razor and pull stroke the other side. do about 10 laps here. Then finish with about 10 very short x stroke laps. Imagine that your stone is only 3" long and you are doing normal x strokes on it. These two techniques will do a lot to clean up your edge if you have any bits of burr hanging on it.
Strop what you got. LOOK at your edge closely under a very bright worklight. Study the reflection as you roll the razor side to side, edge upward. You should see no sparkly bits right on the edge as you roll the razor. If any are present, you aren't done. If none, then wet your thumbnail and gently pull the razor slightly across it with no pressure, just touching. It should stick. Try to shave a bit of arm hair. It should shave arm hair very easily. Try to shave your face. It won't be nothing nice but you should be able to shave your face off a 1k stone, though it won't be very comfortable.
Go back to the razor with the bevel face on one side or the other, facing you. Roll it slightly in the light. Watch the reflection flash across the bevel face. Slow down the roll. See how you can tell where the bevel face begins and ends? See where the two bevel faces meet at the edge? You must have those bevel faces going all the way out to where they intersect. Did you get that? If you sharpie paint the bevel face, will one or two light strokes remove all of the sharpie ink from the bevel face? That's what you want. That tells you that your bevel faces are nice and flat and extend fully out to the edge.
If it turns out that your bevel is not fully set after all that, go at it again. Repeat as necessary.
As a beginner especially, you really should be honing in hand. That helps you to regulate pressure and allows stone and razor to self align. When you lay your stone on a fixed object like a table or workbench and use two hands to "control" the razor, you have a recipe for failure. Bench honing can work, but with no or little experience, you are much better off honing in hand. It may feel unnatural for a minute or so but you will catch on.
Make sure you are not letting the heel of the razor ride up on the hone. That will lift the heel end off the stone and push the toe end down into it. Not good.
Get that bevel well and truly set. That 1k King sucks as a bevel setter but you CAN make it work, for now.
Normally I recommend beginners set the bevel with the burr method or modified burr method, but you are probably very close to having a bevel already, and you would gain little, in exchange for losing a significant amount of steel.
A Naniwa Superstone 1k is a great bevel setter. A slightly faster 1k stone is the Chosera. If you want to go cheap, then order a 1" or thicker piece of cast acrylic sheet cut to 3" x 12" from TAP Plastics. It is a one time investment so don't let sticker shock get you. You will never break it or wear it out. Then get some 15µ lapping film, either Nanolaptech type 26M or 3M type 261x, plain back, not PSA or sticky back. It will come in 8-1/2" x 11" sheets. Cut a sheet in thirds, longways. Wet the back of the film and the top of the acrylic plate, stick the film down on it, and squeegee the water out from under the film with a credit card or similar plastic. The surface tension of the water will hold the film on the plate. Now you have a very consistent and very flat hone. When you wear out the film, you still have two more pieces from that sheet, and hopefully more sheets. A piece of film should be good for a dozen razors, minimum, but bevel setting is particularly hard on the film and a beginner's unskilled hand is, too, so you will use it up more quickly at first. You can use the same acrylic plate for other grades of film. I like 15µ, 9µ, 3µ, and 1µ for a progression. You can also set the bevel on 2k grit sandpaper. Your local automotive parts store should have it, or order online. You will want another plate for sandpaper, because you will want to stick it down with a light spritz of 3M or Loctite spray adhesive. It doesn't stick with just water the way film does, and it will curl up.
At this stage of your honing journey, I would not do any creative substitutions here. Use stuff with a proven track record of excellent results and ease of use, only.
The bevel must be unquestionably set. Without being absolutely certain that the bevel is set, there is absolutely no point in progressing to a finer stone. None at all. The bevel is the foundation.
Resist the urge to "kill" your edge again. Just hone. After lapping your 1k, set the bevel under running water. Hold the stone in hand. Begin with pressure equal to the weight of your arm. You shouldn't be far from having a bevel, depending on how severely you "killed" it. Try about 20 laps at that pressure. Then lighten up on the pressure to just the weight of your forearm. Go another dozen laps at that pressure. Go a dozen more with just the weight of your hand. Then the weight of only about a finger, plus the razor. Then the weight of only the razor. As you do this, try to get a feel for how the razor bites the stone, how the stone makes the razor stick to it, pulling back against the stroke. Hear the sound. Look at how the blade scoops under the honing water and leaves a dry area behind it. These feedback cues are what really tells the story, not lap count. Counting laps isn't really the way to hone. I am just giving you a sample program here.
A pull stroke is where, with the stone aligned normally, one end toward you and one end away from you, you lay the razor flat on the stone normally, crossways to the long axis of the stone, the heel of the razor right up there at the edge of the stone. Pull the razor directly across the stone, dragging it by the shank. Total distance is about 3/4". Very light pressure. Flip the razor and pull stroke the other side. do about 10 laps here. Then finish with about 10 very short x stroke laps. Imagine that your stone is only 3" long and you are doing normal x strokes on it. These two techniques will do a lot to clean up your edge if you have any bits of burr hanging on it.
Strop what you got. LOOK at your edge closely under a very bright worklight. Study the reflection as you roll the razor side to side, edge upward. You should see no sparkly bits right on the edge as you roll the razor. If any are present, you aren't done. If none, then wet your thumbnail and gently pull the razor slightly across it with no pressure, just touching. It should stick. Try to shave a bit of arm hair. It should shave arm hair very easily. Try to shave your face. It won't be nothing nice but you should be able to shave your face off a 1k stone, though it won't be very comfortable.
Go back to the razor with the bevel face on one side or the other, facing you. Roll it slightly in the light. Watch the reflection flash across the bevel face. Slow down the roll. See how you can tell where the bevel face begins and ends? See where the two bevel faces meet at the edge? You must have those bevel faces going all the way out to where they intersect. Did you get that? If you sharpie paint the bevel face, will one or two light strokes remove all of the sharpie ink from the bevel face? That's what you want. That tells you that your bevel faces are nice and flat and extend fully out to the edge.
If it turns out that your bevel is not fully set after all that, go at it again. Repeat as necessary.
As a beginner especially, you really should be honing in hand. That helps you to regulate pressure and allows stone and razor to self align. When you lay your stone on a fixed object like a table or workbench and use two hands to "control" the razor, you have a recipe for failure. Bench honing can work, but with no or little experience, you are much better off honing in hand. It may feel unnatural for a minute or so but you will catch on.
Make sure you are not letting the heel of the razor ride up on the hone. That will lift the heel end off the stone and push the toe end down into it. Not good.
Get that bevel well and truly set. That 1k King sucks as a bevel setter but you CAN make it work, for now.
Normally I recommend beginners set the bevel with the burr method or modified burr method, but you are probably very close to having a bevel already, and you would gain little, in exchange for losing a significant amount of steel.
A Naniwa Superstone 1k is a great bevel setter. A slightly faster 1k stone is the Chosera. If you want to go cheap, then order a 1" or thicker piece of cast acrylic sheet cut to 3" x 12" from TAP Plastics. It is a one time investment so don't let sticker shock get you. You will never break it or wear it out. Then get some 15µ lapping film, either Nanolaptech type 26M or 3M type 261x, plain back, not PSA or sticky back. It will come in 8-1/2" x 11" sheets. Cut a sheet in thirds, longways. Wet the back of the film and the top of the acrylic plate, stick the film down on it, and squeegee the water out from under the film with a credit card or similar plastic. The surface tension of the water will hold the film on the plate. Now you have a very consistent and very flat hone. When you wear out the film, you still have two more pieces from that sheet, and hopefully more sheets. A piece of film should be good for a dozen razors, minimum, but bevel setting is particularly hard on the film and a beginner's unskilled hand is, too, so you will use it up more quickly at first. You can use the same acrylic plate for other grades of film. I like 15µ, 9µ, 3µ, and 1µ for a progression. You can also set the bevel on 2k grit sandpaper. Your local automotive parts store should have it, or order online. You will want another plate for sandpaper, because you will want to stick it down with a light spritz of 3M or Loctite spray adhesive. It doesn't stick with just water the way film does, and it will curl up.
At this stage of your honing journey, I would not do any creative substitutions here. Use stuff with a proven track record of excellent results and ease of use, only.
