Agreed. People who know nothing of firearms should not be handling them.
Prop weapons & personal responsibility
- Thread starter MurderousCrow
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More aptly, people who despise firearms and publicly lobby to rid the earth of them may want to not handle them as part of their livelihood. I wonder if investigations will uncover foul play on this one. Or just negligence. Either way it’s a sad and tragic event.
Sad and tragic, indeed, as it could have and should have been prevented (at least from what we currently know).
As far as I know, blank rounds, when fired, do not involve a physical projectile. However, the gases and air still come out of the end of the barrel...at high speed. As some have already noted...more than likely, an investigation will turn up the sequence of events involved in this incident. For a blank round to have killed someone, it would have had to have been fired at a fairly close range with the weapon pointed at the person. How that happened is yet to be determined and revealed.
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
While I agree with Phil and my heart aches for both the family of the victim, and, to a degree, for Baldwin (one need not like the guy to appreciate what he must be going through right now), and while I appreciate the politics of the issue (Hollywood being generally so anti-gun yet revelling in gun violence in their productions in an almost macabre way), this incident is, pure and simply, a safety and process-failure story.
The article linked below lists the safety checks and procedures that are in common use on Hollywood productions where firearms are used. they seem to be (I have 40 years shooting experience, 30 years coaching experience) very good rules. That they were not followed, scrupulously, and the fact that others resigned from the production prior to this incident indicates that at best gross negligence occurred, and at worst it was criminal negligence, and Baldwin may be in for a world of hurt over this (along with the armorer and prop master). It is a short read, and well worth your time, IMNSHO.
I also agree with @luvmysuper , there is usually no earthly reason for live ammo to be on the set of any movie or play production. Everyone on the set should be subject to criminal penalties for bringing any live ammo to a movie set for any reason. If there is a scene which requires live ammo (I can think of a few reasons), then the set must be equipped with a safe like the below, with a safe-inside-a-safe setup (sturdysafe.com for this model), and all ammo must be kept locked in the inner safe. Only the armorer should have access to that combination, and the armorer should be required to be with the gun and ammo at all times until the scene shoot is complete, and then will return any unused ammo to the inner safe.
Alan Dershowitz believes Baldwin in is extreme jeopardy over this, although in the end, he may not be convicted or even prosecuted. And I remember my father telling me of his Navy days. When relieving the OIC in the CIC (combat information center) of the USS Waldron, the OIC, who would have a holstered .45 ACP, would remove the gun, remove the magazine, point it into a bullet trap, rack the slide to ensure the gun was empty, then hand it to my father. The he, in turn, would point the gun into the bullet trap, rack the slide and double check, personally, that the chamber was empty, even though he had just watched the relieved officer do the same thing. Then he would insert the magazine and holster the pistol, transfer complete. It would not leave the holster until my father was next relieved.
Anyway, enjoy this article. There are procedures in place on production sets. They were not followed. There will be consequences.
www.americanthinker.com
The article linked below lists the safety checks and procedures that are in common use on Hollywood productions where firearms are used. they seem to be (I have 40 years shooting experience, 30 years coaching experience) very good rules. That they were not followed, scrupulously, and the fact that others resigned from the production prior to this incident indicates that at best gross negligence occurred, and at worst it was criminal negligence, and Baldwin may be in for a world of hurt over this (along with the armorer and prop master). It is a short read, and well worth your time, IMNSHO.
I also agree with @luvmysuper , there is usually no earthly reason for live ammo to be on the set of any movie or play production. Everyone on the set should be subject to criminal penalties for bringing any live ammo to a movie set for any reason. If there is a scene which requires live ammo (I can think of a few reasons), then the set must be equipped with a safe like the below, with a safe-inside-a-safe setup (sturdysafe.com for this model), and all ammo must be kept locked in the inner safe. Only the armorer should have access to that combination, and the armorer should be required to be with the gun and ammo at all times until the scene shoot is complete, and then will return any unused ammo to the inner safe.
Alan Dershowitz believes Baldwin in is extreme jeopardy over this, although in the end, he may not be convicted or even prosecuted. And I remember my father telling me of his Navy days. When relieving the OIC in the CIC (combat information center) of the USS Waldron, the OIC, who would have a holstered .45 ACP, would remove the gun, remove the magazine, point it into a bullet trap, rack the slide to ensure the gun was empty, then hand it to my father. The he, in turn, would point the gun into the bullet trap, rack the slide and double check, personally, that the chamber was empty, even though he had just watched the relieved officer do the same thing. Then he would insert the magazine and holster the pistol, transfer complete. It would not leave the holster until my father was next relieved.
Anyway, enjoy this article. There are procedures in place on production sets. They were not followed. There will be consequences.
Alan Dershowitz talks the legalities of Baldwin shooting...
Alan Dershowitz, an emeritus law professor at Harvard, is one of the greatest legal minds of our time, writing multiple books and publishing hundreds of articles about the law. He has been defending clients in courtrooms since the 1970s an...
It's very critical on a movie shoot. Any action sequences with hand to hand and close blocking are usually shot with dummy guns, and a real weapon with blanks is swapped in for firing shots. Because things can easily go wrong and blanks aren't exactly safe, either. Usually a gun is first checked by the armorer (gun wrangler) and then the AD before it's handed to the actor.
Again, live ammo on set is a totally different problem (and I can only think of one reason it might happen short of outright malfeasance).
Gun wranglers will happily spend as much time as they can teaching actors the ins and outs of the weapons they're handling. Some actors are resistant to that, unfortunately. And directors sometimes see it as a waste of time. Fight directors aren't a dime a dozen, though, so they typically wield a lot of power on set.
EclipseRedRing
I smell like a Christmas pudding
A fantastic post from Farmbassador Tan
I have stayed out of this until now. First of all The female killed was a very good friends of one of my really good friends and had worked with her previously. The AD on the movie had previously been removed from another movie where he was ignoring safety procedures and someone got hurt on that set too. The AD didnt check the weapon after he picked it up off the weapons cart. Alec didnt check the weapon from what I have heard either. There was supposed to have been safety classes on set Each time a weapon was brought onto set. There had been so many safety and other complaints on that set that union crew walked off about 7 hrs prior and were replaced by Non Union crew. The AD had already been quoted as saying "do we really need another safety meeting" and said okay guns on set instead and that was all !!!! Some of the 911 calls even said it was that damn AD's fault...
Every movie I have ever had a role in has ALWAYS followed safety rules.. There were MANY errors on that set....
I would like to add, we know that the firearm in question had problems and had misfired in the past.. There could have been remnants from the previous misfires still present and they could have been the cause of a "projectile " that caused grave harm..
I would also like to say people keep "bad mouthing" Alec but we all know that this is not the first time he has had a role that required him to use a gun.. He knows how to use a gun. The weapon could have had other problems that the general public is not aware of. It will be interesting to see how "true" the weapon fires , he seriously may have been following protocols and have not aimed the weapon at someone but that the weapon was so off that it fired wide and even though he was aiming away from anyone it still sent a projectile towards another person.. There are a lot of factors that could have caused the accident on set... Some people may have a problem with him but I know that Alec is also suffering over this he is a pretty nice guy who was just doing an acting job and while he was rehearsing for said job a prop he was wielding caused grave injuries to one person and serious injuries to another.. From what I have heard he has done his usual when upset and closed himself off from the public to spend time with his loved ones and try to make sense of all this..
I would also like to say people keep "bad mouthing" Alec but we all know that this is not the first time he has had a role that required him to use a gun.. He knows how to use a gun. The weapon could have had other problems that the general public is not aware of. It will be interesting to see how "true" the weapon fires , he seriously may have been following protocols and have not aimed the weapon at someone but that the weapon was so off that it fired wide and even though he was aiming away from anyone it still sent a projectile towards another person.. There are a lot of factors that could have caused the accident on set... Some people may have a problem with him but I know that Alec is also suffering over this he is a pretty nice guy who was just doing an acting job and while he was rehearsing for said job a prop he was wielding caused grave injuries to one person and serious injuries to another.. From what I have heard he has done his usual when upset and closed himself off from the public to spend time with his loved ones and try to make sense of all this..
I’m still trying to figure out how 2 people were shot especially since one of the wounds has been reported to be in the chest. Either the bullet (assuming live ammo) went through the first victim and into the second or there were 2 projectiles fired from the gun which would lead you down a path of some kind of foreign object or objects in the barrel.
That's part of the reason why I'm just gonna wait until the investigation is completed before speculating.. It could have very well been another form of projectile... Honestly we are all just guessing right now.
If the weapon had been a replica incapable of chambering or firing, we wouldn't be having this discussion, a young woman would be alive, and Baldwin would be off celebrating instead of mourning.
True and like my old coach used to say about the word If " If bullfrogs had wings they wouldn't bust their butts every time they hopped" either..
.. Firearms have been on sets since the start, and yes their are alternatives now but Lets wait and see what the investigation states...
My proposition has nothing whatsoever to do with the results of the investigation.True and like my old coach used to say about the word If " If bullfrogs had wings they wouldn't bust their butts every time they hopped" either..
When someone used to say "We've always done it this way" a favorite Commanding Officer of mine used to reply "Well, then you've always been doing it wrong".
You must understand that among elitist, rules are for other people. They want to make rules for everyone else but they feel they shouldn't be applied to them. They also tend to be obtuse to their own hypocrisy
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- #56
I get what you're saying. But that doesn't make it a tragic accident in which no-one is culpable (I don't imagine you're actually driving at that). Had the Actors' Equity Association guidance referenced by @nikonNUT been followed (great info on that, thanks!), this incident would not have happened.
No kidding. Take this picture of Diane Feinstein for example. She has been a vocal opponent against gun rights.
And here we see her with a rifle, drum mag installed, finger on the trigger, muzzle pointed at the crowd, preaching about how dangerous guns are.
Hypocrisy, am I right?
JCinPA
The Lather Maestro
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stupidity, arrogance
Stupidity, arrogance
First remember that Equity is the theatre union.. Sag is the film union...A lot of us are in both Unions. Yes rules were violated but lets remember to follow the proper rules for the proper media form.. Someone or possibly several someone's are responsible for this.. Its a domino effect...1 person didn't encourage proper work standards and then others followed suit which led to lax standards being followed by ALL..
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- #60
Can't disagree with that.
I think the idea of personal responsibility for firearm safety on set is a small but important measure in the wider context of improving a safety system. The fallout of this incident shows Hollywood as an industry to be slack and uncaring about worker safety. I fully acknowledge that most sets get it right. But the lack of clear rules for criminal legal enforcement (for all involved in the hazardous process) means safety systems are far more likely to fail.
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