Problems with Latigo

[blackhhawk]

Hello all -

Posting here about my big daddy strop in black latigo. When I first got it, the leather was very very stiff and slick. At the same time I also got a "beginner's" strop from them in english bridle. The bridle had much more draw and wasn't nearly as stiff. I just thought the latigo needed some breaking in. I've applied a very small amount of neatsfoot oil to it since purchase which was about a month ago, maybe a few weeks more. I've been using it every day a few times. It has definitely broken in a bit, but its still very stiff and slick. It has more draw now then when I first got it, but nothing like the bridle. My main concern is that it is very stiff, and not flat. I would imagine that a combination of me pulling on it/the spine leading my stroke, it flattens it as I strop, but I just don't like it. I've done HHTs before and after stropping to check and see if it effects the edge, and it seems as though it isn't detrimental to my edge or shaving. It just doesn't feel right.

Is this common? Should I give it more time? Lately I've been stropping half on the latigo, then switching to the bridle. The latigo is a lower "grit" and bridle is a higher "grit", so I see it like a honing progression, but stropping. I just ordered a replacement strip for the strop to switch it out to an english bridle.

 

[Loner16]

I'm not a leather expert, but I believe that the names Latigo, Bridle, etc. do not tell the entire story of the tanning process. One tannery's latigo may not feel like another's ... Perhaps even from hide to hide?

Anyway, I've got a Tony Miller latigo. Beautiful strop, but when new it had extreme draw, nearly unusable for me. I could not get Tony Miller to sell me a replacement piece of leather, so I bought bridle leather from Neil Miller, and the TM strop has just hung here since, for more than three years. Neil Miller's Burgundy Bridle felt super nice, and improved my edges nicely ... I've used it since. Just for laughs, not too long back, I stropped on the TM latigo, and time had reduced the draw signifigantly. Enough that it now feels rather nice. But, I've gotten used to an extra long strop, and cannot go back to the TM.
All that said, leather is a natural product, and as such, varies with temperatures, humidity, and a raft of other variables..

I've got extra long shell cordovan coming from Neil Miller. I like the feel of the Kanayama #3, but prefer linen as a second component over the K suede. This one from Neil will be the strop to last my lifetime!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Give it a vigorous rub with your hand before you use it every day. Be careful not to over oil it. Don't be shy about letting steam from the shower get to it. That will help. Latigo is stiffer when it is bone dry. At least IME.

If it is not nice and flat, it is important to use light pressure and a considerable amount of x stroke, even if the strop is wide enough to not need it. Otherwise it is possible for parts of the blade to not get much love. But don't worry. In time it will mellow out for you. I have two of the BDs, by the way, in Chestnut or whatever, and I love them.

 

[silver]

I had a Latigo Big Daddy as well and never liked the feel of it. I really like the bridle one I have.

 

[Tony Miller]

Anyway, I've got a Tony Miller latigo. Beautiful strop, but when new it had extreme draw, nearly unusable for me. I could not get Tony Miller to sell me a replacement piece of leather, so I bought bridle leather from Neil Miller, and the TM strop has just hung here since, for more than three years.

Just for the record "could not get Tony Miller to sell me a replacement" meant I did not have it available any longer, not that I would not sell it to you. If I had still had Latigo I would have gladly sold you a replacement (or given it to you for free if you were unhappy).

I am sorry I was not able to help you at that time as I do my best to accommodate anyone's requests if at all possible.

Tony

 

[blackhhawk]

Interesting. Yeah, it's a big daddy strop from star shaving. I just don't like the feel of it. It's very hard. Slash, I might take it near the shower to try and get some steam into it. Good idea. In the mean time, I ordered a replacement leather piece for it in English bridle from star shaving. I was doing everything I could with rubbing it daily and moving it around to try and break it in and I've just kind of given up. Hopefully the new piece gets here quickly. In the mean time I think I'm just going to use the less wide bridle strop I have and see how that works out.

 

[life2short1971]

Just for the record "could not get Tony Miller to sell me a replacement" meant I did not have it available any longer, not that I would not sell it to you. If I had still had Latigo I would have gladly sold you a replacement (or given it to you for free if you were unhappy).

I am sorry I was not able to help you at that time as I do my best to accommodate anyone's requests if at all possible.

Tony

This is definitely true! Tony is a gentleman first and businessman second.

Now as for the strop belonging to the OP before you add anything else to the strop try using either a glass bottle or a wooden rolling pin and rub the strop with it a good 50-75 times like you were stropping a razor and see what that does for your leather. Thats one method I use to to help break in bovine strops.

 

[Neil Miller]

Blackhawk - that type of latigo is meant to be stiff and firm. There is not a lot you can do to change it - it will get a little more supple with prolonged use, and the draw can be modified a little, but that's about it.

Latigo means different things to different people. The reason why is there is no fixed definition of it, and it is made in many different ways. It may be veg-tanned, alum tanned, chrome tanned or a combination re=tan, like veg-tan/chrome tan (or vice versa). Added to this is another partial 'tanning' that takes place during 'hot-stuffing' when aldehydes form in the leather as it is in the tub of hot oils and waxes.

Chrome tanning uses chromium salts - it makes a pliable, soft, stretchy leather usually, that makes metal tarnish and or rust.
Veg-tanned leather uses plant matter like bark, leaves, etc, for a supple leather.
Alum tanning uses aluminium salts and produces a stiffer leather.
Aldehyde-tanning is a secondary feature of hot stuffing or a tanning procedure in its own right, recognisable by a 'cream/grey' coloured central portion, used for fine finish leathers, eg for car seats.
Oil-tanning is not technically tanning - it is hot suffing, that may have a contribution to forming aldehydes.

So, you could have a leather that has undergone three tanning processes. Most usually with latigo it will be a two part re-tan, though.

The part of the animal the leather comes from (it can come from any animal, but is associated mostly with cowhide. Steerhide and cowhide is more or less the same animal, except that steerhide may have a fimer texture, particularly on the flesh side, and be a bit thicker. But you can get this with cowhide too, so to all intents and purposes they are the same) - typically, the leather can be thick and firm and fall off into thinner leather with looser fibres on the flesh side. One way around this 'looseness' is to roll the leather under pressure. This makes it stiffer. A lot stiffer.

Quite a number of years ago nearly all latigo leather we came across for strop-making purposes was the heavily oiled, loose fibred flesh side that was very pliable. Then a cheaper way to produce it was sought, and the US hides were sent to Mexico to be tanned as the labour was cheaper. The hard, stiff, somewhat board-like latigo seems to date from that time.

I have had this latigo - and still have a side that is a few years old. It is incredibly hard to cut, has a slick draw quite unlike the older oily latigo, it doesn't feel oily and it appears to be compressed - the flesh side looks very odd, a bit plastic-like - hard to explain, but not at all fibrous. It excels for paddle making, and if you can skive it thinner (it is around 4 - 5mm thick) it becomes a bit more pliable. It is very water resistant and appears to be quite oil resistant too - I have one piece that has had oil wiped into both sides half a dozen times, and smeared on between two pieces of leather and left for a week. The draw was made a bit heavier by this, but as the oil dried out the draw fell off again, going slick and fast, so I am supposing it was just trapped in the surface pores of the leather and did not penetrate it much at all.

The only thing that seems to make it a bit more pliable is repeatedly pulling it in a tight curve over something like a curved chair back. This took forever, though, and any merit it had was overshadowed by the wifes reaction to the back of the chair.

If that is the type of latigo you have, then it is natural for that tannage and it will probably stay that way.

Regards,
Neil

PS: Tony Miller is one of the nicest guys I know - he has bent over backwards to help people out and I'm sure if he could have helped, he would. In fact, I know he would.

 

[blackhhawk]

Thanks for the information guys, lots of good stuff in here. The leather is plastic like, but not as slick as it was. I am ok with the draw at this point, but not OK with it not being flat. That was my main problem. It seems to be so stiff on each end (the middle seems to have broken in the most) that it isn't a flat surface for the blade which I don't like. I might take someone's advice here and just go at it daily with a glass bottle or something similar and see if that fixes anything. I thought about only using it on a table. Maybe I can turn the strip of leather into a bench strop.

 

[Alum of Potash]

From what I understand, the Star Shaving black latigo is a different, "coarser" surface than the burgundy or chestnut versions. It is intended for knives, rather than razors, and this may be part of the your problem here. I don't think Star Shaving says this on their Website though (haven't visited there in a while). It is only when you receive the accompanying paperwork upon ordering the strop that this is mentioned.

 

[Loner16]

Just for the record "could not get Tony Miller to sell me a replacement" meant I did not have it available any longer, not that I would not sell it to you. If I had still had Latigo I would have gladly sold you a replacement (or given it to you for free if you were unhappy).

I am sorry I was not able to help you at that time as I do my best to accommodate anyone's requests if at all possible.

Tony

Well, that was not really the case..

Obviously, I did not want another piece of Latigo, as I did not get on with it in the first place. I wanted to buy another type of leather as a replacement, to make the strop usable for me. So, I can only speak to the fact that my requests were not accommodated. I know nothing of anyone else ...

 

[blackhhawk]

From what I understand, the Star Shaving black latigo is a different, "coarser" surface than the burgundy or chestnut versions. It is intended for knives, rather than razors, and this may be part of the your problem here. I don't think Star Shaving says this on their Website though (haven't visited there in a while). It is only when you receive the accompanying paperwork upon ordering the strop that this is mentioned.

Did not know this. I haven't seen anything anywhere saying it was only for knives. I did however see that it was in fact a lower "grit" rating than the others. I noticed this after buying it. This is why I would go from latigo to bridle. Either way, I ordered a replacement in bridle and might try and turn the latigo into a bench strop. If it works better for knives then thats fine by me, now I have a strop for my knives.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Did not know this. I haven't seen anything anywhere saying it was only for knives. I did however see that it was in fact a lower "grit" rating than the others. I noticed this after buying it. This is why I would go from latigo to bridle. Either way, I ordered a replacement in bridle and might try and turn the latigo into a bench strop. If it works better for knives then thats fine by me, now I have a strop for my knives.

Yes, that's it, it's described as "lower grit"--60,000x vs. 90,000x, or something crazy like that. At one point, I exchanged e-mails with Ron at Star Shaving about the subject, and maybe he mentioned the black being for stropping knives there. Coupled with a burgundy or chestnut, I've thought it might make an interesting "step-up" pair. Sort of a poor-man's Kanayama two-step in this way.

 

[Neil Miller]

Technically, latigo of a deep red/burgundy colour is alum tanned. However, alum tanning is not real tanning, the correct name is alum-tawing. A very old method of making leather, the finished leather was resilient if handled properly, but if it was washed there was a risk of the alum salts washing out, leaving behind something very much like rawhide. After tawing the hides were set on a frame and hardened considerably - called 'crusted' leather at this stage it was laboriously worked over a blunt steel curved edge to stretch it fully and make it soft again. Urine and ammonia were used, too, so if you dampen a very old alum-tawed leather you can sometimes smell the urine.

Obviously modern latigo makes use of alum tanning, but it must incorporate a re-tanning step or the leather could never be used for things like saddles, reins and whips. Old alum-tawed leathers came out white or pearly grey, then were surface dyed. If the dye did not pentrate right through - which it doesn't always, then you are left with a pearly coloured core. The alum dyed modern latigos all seem to be tub-dyed, though, as are the other colours. "red hide" latigo would only differ to the black due to the colour of the dyestuff, so any 'grit' rating, however dubious this may seem, cannot be due to the colouring.

Regards,
Neil

PS: Loner16 - my wife says I have been wrong before!

 

[Alum of Potash]

Technically, latigo of a deep red/burgundy colour is alum tanned. However, alum tanning is not real tanning, the correct name is alum-tawing. A very old method of making leather, the finished leather was resilient if handled properly, but if it was washed there was a risk of the alum salts washing out, leaving behind something very much like rawhide. After tawing the hides were set on a frame and hardened considerably - called 'crusted' leather at this stage it was laboriously worked over a blunt steel curved edge to stretch it fully and make it soft again. Urine and ammonia were used, too, so if you dampen a very old alum-tawed leather you can sometimes smell the urine.

Obviously modern latigo makes use of alum tanning, but it must incorporate a re-tanning step or the leather could never be used for things like saddles, reins and whips. Old alum-tawed leathers came out white or pearly grey, then were surface dyed. If the dye did not pentrate right through - which it doesn't always, then you are left with a pearly coloured core. The alum dyed modern latigos all seem to be tub-dyed, though, as are the other colours. "red hide" latigo would only differ to the black due to the colour of the dyestuff, so any 'grit' rating, however dubious this may seem, cannot be due to the colouring.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks for sharing your insights Neil. About the color thing I mentioned before: I suppose that the color itself is just there to indicate the difference. So the steps leading to the creation of the surface must differ too, though, as you say. The surface feel and suppleness of a black Star Shaving strop is different from, say, that of a burgundy one, although they both are advertised as being the same. So it's not just the color, but the treatment as well.

 

[Neil Miller]

Thanks for sharing your insights Neil. About the color thing I mentioned before: I suppose that the color itself is just there to indicate the difference. So the steps leading to the creation of the surface must differ too, though, as you say. The surface feel and suppleness of a black Star Shaving strop is different from, say, that of a burgundy one, although they both are advertised as being the same. So it's not just the color, but the treatment as well.

Oh yes, I definitely agree.

Rather than using 'grit' like they do, I would rather use 'draw' as the determining factor. I don't know how you would work out the grit of hide - its hard enough with natural hones, and even them as in the case of translucent arkansas and the ilk it is done by using specific gravity and gives you an idea of how tightly packed the abrasive particles are. Sparsely packed and you get a faster but coarser hone, tightly packed and you get a slower but finer hone. Quite how that would relate to leather I have no idea!

Whilst 'draw' is to some extent subjective, it seems to be tacitly agreed that slicker strops (ie little or no draw) finish an edge better than strops with a lot of draw. Within limits, of course!

Regards,
Neil

 

[Tony Miller]

Well, that was not really the case..

Obviously, I did not want another piece of Latigo, as I did not get on with it in the first place. I wanted to buy another type of leather as a replacement, to make the strop usable for me. So, I can only speak to the fact that my requests were not accommodated. I know nothing of anyone else ...

Loner16,

Again, I am sorry I was not able to help you and this much later I really don't remember what type of leather you had wanted, or even our email exchange. I just know that if I had material available that would have helped you I would have offered it. I cannot image that I would have refused a previous customer and if you feel that I did this to you I am very sorry. Maybe I misunderstood your request, maybe I didn't get your emails, maybe you did not get my replies, I don't know. I know we PM's privately about this maybe a year ago and am still puzzled as to what had happened. That is not how I do business and the only reason I hijacked this thread at all is that your post made it sound like I refused to help you on purpose. If I could still help you today with something to make that particular strop more suitable to you I would.

I won't interrupt any further.

Tony

 

[Loner16]

This will also be my last entry in this thread...

Let me just say that my intent in this is not to sully Tony Miller's reputation. His workmanship is impeccable, and it is not his fault that I did not like the feel of Latigo. That is just a matter of personal taste. But, I must say that we did e-mail back and forth at the time. I believe we each received each other's responses. As a customer, I felt abused that I could not get any satisfaction, and I must say that I still feel that way today.
However, I do feel that Tony would make it right, at this point, if he could. Unfortunately, the time has past. The strop will, in all probability, hang here as is, for the forseeable future. I've moved on to strops made by Neil Miller, which I have been completely happy with. Neil answers all my questions, however stupid... Always provides good advice when we are working on a new project, is responsive to my wants and needs, and whenever I need an item for service, or just to change something, he can be counted on to help .. so, I cannot say enough good things about Neil.
I would work with Tony Miller to make amends, as I'm sure we would both like to put this episode behind us, but I don't see how. It happened, and there is no changing that. I do not wish Tony Miller anything but the best, but I would never again have the ability to be called a satisfied customer. Further, I now prefer extra long strops, about as long as I can get 'em. And I've moved away from the 3" width to 2 1/2 inches .. It just feels better to me.

I have found my Leather Artisan, and I hope others do also ... Whoever that Artisan may be ...

Please carry on about Latigo ...

 

[California Cajun]

This will also be my last entry in this thread...

Let me just say that my intent in this is not to sully Tony Miller's reputation. His workmanship is impeccable, and it is not his fault that I did not like the feel of Latigo. That is just a matter of personal taste. But, I must say that we did e-mail back and forth at the time. I believe we each received each other's responses. As a customer, I felt abused that I could not get any satisfaction, and I must say that I still feel that way today.
However, I do feel that Tony would make it right, at this point, if he could. Unfortunately, the time has past. The strop will, in all probability, hang here as is, for the forseeable future. I've moved on to strops made by Neil Miller, which I have been completely happy with. Neil answers all my questions, however stupid... Always provides good advice when we are working on a new project, is responsive to my wants and needs, and whenever I need an item for service, or just to change something, he can be counted on to help .. so, I cannot say enough good things about Neil.
I would work with Tony Miller to make amends, as I'm sure we would both like to put this episode behind us, but I don't see how. It happened, and there is no changing that. I do not wish Tony Miller anything but the best, but I would never again have the ability to be called a satisfied customer. Further, I now prefer extra long strops, about as long as I can get 'em. And I've moved away from the 3" width to 2 1/2 inches .. It just feels better to me.

I have found my Leather Artisan, and I hope others do also ... Whoever that Artisan may be ...

Please carry on about Latigo ...

I think your problem is that you didn't like the item you bought, and it's not the fault of the item, or the manufacturer, or you. In the intervening time period you have discovered other material and sizes more to your liking that Tony does not produce. I think it is unfair to somehow blame Tony for this, which I think you have used the "last word" to do.

As a member of this forum, I want to do my part to keep it friendly. For that reason I'm calling you out for tarnishing the reputation of one of our most respected vendors.

Unless you have damaged the strop during use, why not put it up for sale on BST? That way you get most of your money back and someone who likes what has been a very popular product in the past will get one for a little less than retail price.

 

[Loner16]

I think your problem is that you didn't like the item you bought, and it's not the fault of the item, or the manufacturer, or you. In the intervening time period you have discovered other material and sizes more to your liking that Tony does not produce. I think it is unfair to somehow blame Tony for this, which I think you have used the "last word" to do.

As a member of this forum, I want to do my part to keep it friendly. For that reason I'm calling you out for tarnishing the reputation of one of our most respected vendors.

Unless you have damaged the strop during use, why not put it up for sale on BST? That way you get most of your money back and someone who likes what has been a very popular product in the past will get one for a little less than retail price.

For your information, this happened three and a half years ago. I bought the strop based on Tony Miller's reputation! I clearly stated that it was not his fault that I did not get along with the Latigo. One of the reasons that I bought a modular strop was so I could interchange components if I did not like them. That proved to be a moot point in this case, as I could not get a replacement piece of leather.
I never stated the strop was not beautiful, not worthy the price paid, or anything of the kind ... Only that the customer service I expected after the sale was lacking. To my mind, that was, and is, a fact.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but there it is!