Police Academy

[ackvil]

I am attending a citizens police academy. Last night our session was on firearms that the police use in our town.

The handgun of choice is the Glock 17. However, the police officer can carry any approved firearm. However, first, they must pass a gun range test showing proficiency at various yards. When we went to the gun range it became apparent that passing that test is not as easy as it appeared since the first test was at about 100 feet. The instructor said that about 95% of the officers carry the Glock 17 or smaller versions of the Glock 9mm such as the G 19, 26, 43, or 45) if they do undercover work. If an officer wants to carry a 1911 pistol he or she must pay for the gun and pass a more rigorous test.

The instructor is a competition shooter who uses a STI 1911 pistol for such shooting. It was a nicely made pistol but carried a price tag of about $3,000.

Next, he showed us the AR 17 that was issued. The class has a nice mix of people. There are six women four of whom have never shot a pistol. This part of the program produced many questions. Some topics that produced some surprising reactions:

• AR does not stand for automatic rifle but refers to the company that invented the rifle: Amarlite.
• The AR 17 is not a good gun for shooting through car windows and takes many shots to break the glass. However, it does the most damage to an individual since it twirls. We had a mini physics lesson on the ballistics of bullets shot from a pistol and rifle. Unlike the AR 17, the G17 has far more penetration power but can through an individual and hit another.
• The cost of the fully equipped AR 17 is about $3,000. Some of the ladies who handled the AR 17 were surprised at how light the rifle was.
• Before getting approved to carry an AR 17 an officer must go through extensive training and pass a number of tests.

In addition, we saw the shotgun that is issued to police officers. The shotgun shoots bean bag ammo instead of regular bullets. We heard various times that this device has been used and its effectiveness.

In addition to the gun range, we visited a shoot house in which police officers, usually those on the SWAT team, go through various simulated scenes while using live ammo.

The class then went to a training facility where there is a simulated training device that has converted a G17 to a laser gun. An officer is then presented via a video with real-life scenarios. Twelve of us were put to the test and it was eye-opening. The one I had was I was backing up another officer. The scene was a driver who appeared to have auto trouble with his hood up. The driver actually has outstanding warrants which we did not know about at the time of the stop. My partner was walking to the stopped driver when the driver pulls out a gun and shoots my partner. I had less than one second to shoot the driver. The scenario really brought home how little time you have to react to a situation.

Each person went through different scenarios and we all were amazed at how little time you had to react. One test that was interesting was a scene where an individual is stopped and told to get out of his car. The individual is about 21 feet from the police officer and appears to be unarmed and looks harmless. All of sudden the individual slowly walks to the police officer. The individual tells the officer to stop and put his hands up. The individual puts his hand behind his back and pulls out a knife while running to the police officer. The person playing the police officer attempted to draw the gun from her holster but before she could do so the individual had covered the distance and "stabbed" the officer. It brought home how little time you have to react. In another scene, a person is committing an armed robbery and is hiding behind a car. The person in the class times a shot and "hits" the robber who then falls to the ground. Unfortunately, the "officer" did not pay attention to the robber on the ground who with the gun in his hand then shoots the police officer.

One interesting test was to see the time it takes for your brain to observe a scene and take action by shooting and then stop shooting when an innocent bystander comes into play.

Those of us in the class who are gun owners came to realize it's a lot different to shoot paper targets in contrast to real-life scenes.

 

[DCRIII]

Very interesting, sounds like something more people should experience!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[cw62803]

Cool stuff. Sounds like you had quite an experience.

 

[ScottChapin]

I took a Silikat course about 8 years ago. One evening we spent on a FATS. It was well worth the time spent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OkieStubble]

Way to go Jim!

 

[Ad Astra]

Yes, a very interesting read! Thanks.

AR-15 rifle? There is an AR-17 shotgun, but it's unusual.

The Differences Between AR-15s & AR-17s


AA

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

Sounds like a really interesting class and a really squared away department. Any more info on the rifles - brand, optics, etc? For an agency to splurge $3000 on a fully equipped rifle is pretty amazing in my opinion and awesome for the officers. AR-15 pattern rifles are pretty ubiquitous in the law enforcement community now that most agencies moved away from the shotgun. As you said, lightweight, more rounds, easier to shoot, better ballistics, etc.

That is really cool that talked to you about ballistics. Most people don't realize that traditional AR-15s chambered in .223/.556 do have limitations especially when it comes to penetration. It is a great cqb/home defense round as it looses a lot of its lethality if for some reason it misses and goes through multiple layers of dry wall and insulation (which is a good thing). However, it does have good terminal/wound ballistics as it tumbles and yaws after penetration which can stop bad guys in their tracks. 9mm ball has pretty poor terminal/wound ballistics and can zip through most dry wall. That being said, 9mm hallow points, particularly the 147gr Federal HSTs or 124gr Gold Dots are excellent for sidearm use.

 

[ackvil]

The AR 15 that the police department purchased is not available for sale to the general public, according to the instructor. The Rifles come equipped with special optics, locks, extra magazines, a tactical light, telescopic stocks, and other accessories. However, I could not see the manufacturer of the rifle but another individual who was closer to the rifle thought it was a Sig Sauer. The barrels appeared to be about 14" and each mag held 30 rounds. An officer carries three extra magazines for the AR 15 and at least three more for his pistol. 50 hours of extra training are required and the test requires an individual to be able to hit a paper target at 100 yards. If an officer misses the paper target completely at any time the test ends and he or she will be retested later. An individual must qualify within two tests.

Next week we meet with the SWAT officers.

 

[ColtRevolver]

The instructor probably meant the rifle wasn't available to the public without a tax stamp if it had a barrel that was less than 16".

 

[simon1]

Congrats. on going through the police familiarization course. Those reactive training videos are good. A paintball course is pretty good also.

Sometimes you only have a millisecond to react.

Building search exercises are also good, huh @OkieStubble ?

As for cars...the .357 mag. was developed back in the '30s for use against the steel bodies of cars and the gangsters that decided to wear body armor at times. The .45 ACP was having problems with that.

A pretty good read.

What so great about the .357 Magnum? - Liberty Tree Guns

This is a bit long, and it looks like the guy that wrote it could have done some editing, but it gets the point across.

Legacy: When Cops Carried Revolvers | American Cop Magazine

Oh, and the M-16 full auto seemed to have a bit of a problem with tumbling the rounds in Vietnam, but when it did...A lot of people liked the M-14 better.

The instructor probably meant the rifle wasn't available to the public without a tax stamp if it had a barrel that was less than 16".

Yup, we had 14" shotguns in the cars. Those and the full auto ones you needed a stamp to own unless you just checked them out to go play with...they still belonged to the department. None of our stuff, even the full auto, cost $3,000 apiece though.

 

[martym]

I was lucky enough to carry an MP5 for many years. A truly wonderful weapon.

Also lucky enough to have fired and trained with many different weapons. And I have taught firearms for many years. A truly wonderful job. 9mm paintball weapons are eye openers.

I have even taught firearms and officer safety and survival courses in Mexico, Canada, Moldova, and many of the “Stan’s”.

Many of the responses coming from students (officers) and observers were the same as @ackvil.

Eye opening!!

 

[Legion]

Interesting.

Is that bean bag shotgun available for civilians to buy for home defence, or is it just for cops? I think if I was in a place where I could do so, I would actually prefer one of those under the bed than risking shooting lead through my walls into who knows, if there was an armed intruder.

 

[ColtRevolver]

They are regular 12 gauge shotguns. Some PD's put an orange Houge stock on them that is marked "Less Lethal" to differentiate the gun from one that is to be loaed with lead.

You can buy the 12 gauge bean bag rounds.

 

[ackvil]

They are regular 12 gauge shotguns. Some PD's put an orange Houge stock on them that is marked "Less Lethal" to differentiate the gun from one that is to be loaed with lead.

You can buy the 12 gauge bean bag rounds.

Yes, the ones we have in our town are either orange or yellow stocks. In an incident shown on a body cam we could see the effectiveness of the bean rounds. Huge bruises.

 

[OkieStubble]

Is that bean bag shotgun available for civilians to buy for home defence, or is it just for cops?

"Bean Bag Shotguns" Are still, an typical, ordinary working shotgun just like any other. The colored stock, is to only designate them "for bean bag use only" and for identification purposes by officers. A Bean bag round is simply a small fabric pouch, that is weaved together to hold lead shot and replaces the typical loose wad of shot, in a typical, powder charged shotgun shell.

There is no legal definition for a non-lethal use of a firearm, so while they are designed for use by law enforcement, they are not illegal to purchase in many states. However, just because they are not illegal to purchase in many places, does not mean, that those same places where they are not illegal, that most of those places will still not sell it to non LE. Most have policies in place, to not make them available for sell to civilians. So, may be "legal" but still not "available" to purchase.

I think if I was in a place where I could do so, I would actually prefer one of those under the bed than risking shooting lead through my walls into who knows, if there was an armed intruder.

While I strongly believe in the freedom for a person defending themselves the way they think best, personally, I would advise against a bean bag round for self defense. As I said previously, there is no legal definition in place for non lethal bean bag rounds. While this fact will not impede the use of the bean bag round for a on duty police officer, in the performance of their duties, in a specific situation or circumstance and applied for a law enforcement application, it very well could place a private citizen in a huge grey area for either, criminal or civil liabilities.

Just because bean bag rounds are "designed?" to be "considered?" to be "less lethal?" Do not make the mistake of thinking that they can't be "lethal." In my career, I have witnessed first hand, of not only the lethality, of the non lethal round, but also, the severe and permanent, life long damage that can/will be inflicted on those who survive.
I can tell you, a 12 gauge bean bag round, can and has been, very lethal; and even when not, still very gruesome to see.

So, are they beneficial for certain, specific, and complicated situations/incidents? Yes. Do they provide a better answer for specific outcomes in substitute/place of, actual shotgun ammunition, for certain LE applications and criteria? Most definitely.

However, the question of, will they in a civilian self-defense scenario? One should not make the mistake to think, a civilian based self defense would be the same as a LE based incident application. Most LE incidents of bean bag deployment, are used in a stand off type scenario. The incident itself has stopped evolving, has stopped moving forward.

1. Will there be a police perimeter all ready set up in the civilian self defense application? There will most likely in the LE application.

2. Will there be a negotiator on scene in this civilian applied use in self defense of the bean bag round, that is helping slow down the suspect, where a carefully and methodically placed bean bag by a highly trained officer that will properly incapacitate the suspect and yet, still cause the least amount of physical damage with the highest percentages of also being the most effective? And it's still a crap shoot to be honest.

3. Or will this civilian self defense scenario, most likely be in the dark? in a very fast and dynamically evolving scenario, with no time to think? No time to slow down? No time to wipe the sleep out of your eyes? No time to convince the suspect to slow down for a carefully placed shot that will ensure greater percentages, of successfully ending the attack, but also, of a well placed, and humanely placed shot? That will still guarantee the suspects and your families survival if it's a success? What if it's a failure? You miss? Only in the arm or leg from a miss placed shot? Is the suspect all over you now?

4. The bean bag round from a shotgun, is quasi accurate up to 6 meters. After that, not so much. In self defense distances? And inside a dwelling? It can easily punch thru drywall and travel thru walls.

5. If a police officer, deploys a bean bag round on a barricaded suspect inside a dwelling, that dwelling and surrounding dwellings have already been evacuated of people, other then hostage/hostages/ and a police perimeter is in place.

6. If a civilian deploys it in self defense? In a occupied dwelling? That bean bag will keep that lead shot intact, which will help the lead shot retain it's mass and energy. No possibility of innocents getting hurt from an internal shotgun wound, but force blunt trauma? Most definitely a possibility.

7. Deploying a bean bag round in a civilian, self defense application, cannot be considered anywhere near to similar, in the situation and very specific and detailed circumstances, that a bean bag will be deployed by a trained law enforcement officer, in a specific law enforcement situation, under certain specific law enforcement criteria and guidelines.

The Modus Operandi for the purpose of application, from the liability factors all the way to the desired final outcome just isn't the same.

Leave the bean bag round to the police and get you some good self defense ammunition, that will ensure the safety of you and your loved ones.

 

[nortac]

@OkieStubble , thanks for the detailed explanation of the proper employment of bean bag rounds.

 

[Shaving like a boss]

Another small thing to consider when using "less leathal" rounds like bean bag rounds: These are based on pain compliance. If Joe Blow dirtbag is hopped up on PCP or for some other reason cannot feel or react to pain, your bean bag round is just going to anger aforementioned dirtbag. I have witnessed this and it is startling when it happens, to say the least. My personal opinion, if Mr. dirtbag appears in my home unbidden and has his heart set on mayhem, he will be met with either a stiff handgun round or a heaping helping of #5 shot. Again, this is my plan. You will have to make up your own mind.

 

[ackvil]

Follow up.

Last week we had our session with the SWAT officers. Another eye-opening experience. The session was broken up into segments. First, we had the weapons used by the officers. Next was the training. And finally, the technical aspects.

I asked the head of the SWAT team who made the AR 15 they use. He said that they buy them from a local company: POF Ordinance. The county has made arrangements with POF to meet the specifications the County requires and they then produce the guns as needed. He said they are then customized in-house. We saw some videos of actual SWAT engagements and how they engage the suspect. We also saw a demonstration of some of the less than lethal weapons (taser, gas, "distractors," etc.)

We also heard from a hostage negotiator and he showed us some videos of encounters.

Finally, the tech guys showed us the latest tech "toys." Drones, robots, and other surveillance devices.

Tonight's session is on street gangs and our final session next week on narcotics.

 

[OtterLunacy]

It'd be nice if more people could go through those scenarios like you did, especially anyone in a position to legally "punish" cops for use of "excessive force." I really don't think most people appreciate the stressful, split-second decisions that officers have to make. It's easy to be critical when you have the benefit of hindsight from the safety and comfort of home.

 

[machinisttx]

Typically speaking, most places will legally view the use of "less lethal" ammunition/firearms the same as standard ammunition/firearms. That is to say, if the use of deadly force was not legal, then your ammunition/firearm choice is of no consequence and you will very likely win a long vacation at the graybar hotel.