Past Gun Buys You Are So HAPPY About Now

[noelekal]

Ol' Army buds.

Colt and Smith & Wesson Model 1917 .45s.



I set out to collect US military arms as a teen. Gathered many representative specimens before I married. It's amazing how expensive US military small arms have become.

Colt adopted the grand New Service revolver which was in current production at the time in order to provide M1917 revolvers to the War Department on contract. The Colt New Service was a popular revolver throughout the "teen years" with both commercial sales and foreign sales, especially to Great Britain and its Commonwealth. The New Service nailed down Colt's large-frame, big-bore presence in the double-action revolver market during those years so was in continuous production from 1899 to World War II.

The early Colt M1917s had simple bored-through chambers while most of the production had chamber throats like their Smith & Wesson counterparts.

The New Service is my very favorite Colt revolver model of all. I'd love to go down the rabbit hole and pursue the tangent of collecting them. Only two New Service revolvers live here, the Model 1917 and a uncommonly seen US military contract Model 1909 in .45 Colt. It's another gun on hand that makes the list of most gratifying guns that make me happy, but that's another story.

 

[novitiate]

I suppose I should share. My favorite Mosin is one not made in Russia. This one is Hungarian, unissued, and no import marks. It still has lacquer on the bolt and optics S/N same as rifle. Don't know history on it but the finish is near commercial quality. Action is as slick as a Finnish Mosin too -

 

[noelekal]

Very cool revolver regardless and at $115, outright theft. Add Colt letter and a big Well Done!

Some things to consider about the load. Yours sounds similar to the .38-200 (.38 S&W interchangeable). It was the WW2 British service load for their Enfields & Webleys. Ballistics tell the tale though. The .380ACP bests it in velocity and ft. lbs. delivered in nearly any loading. (Does not make me want to get shot by one.)

With similar barrel length this load adds ~40 ft. lbs. over the .38-200 under 25 yards. Might be an option if you carry it -

38 S&W (38 COLT NEW POLICE) Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

38 S&W (38 COLT NEW POLICE) Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

OOOooo... I don't know. The .380 would have to get up pretty early in the morning to best the good ol' .38 S&W.

I posted this narrative some years ago just for fun after playing with the cartridge.

Cartridge Discussion: .38 S&W - Ghost From Bygone Times

An ancient handgun cartridge, the .38 S&W was developed, surprisingly enough, by Smith & Wesson in 1875 and first marketed in their .38 Single Action First Model, a top-break, spur trigger revolver. It proved to be a very popular round in its heyday, being featured in revolvers both of quality make and in the inexpensive suicide specials. This popularity didn’t wane to any significant degree until after World War II. Originally charged with black powder, it easily survived the transition to smokeless powder with its popularity intact. Colt appropriated the design, naming their version the .38 New Police. The British military establishment embraced it as the .38/200, loading it with an abnormally heavy 200 grain bullet and pronounced it to be equal in effectiveness to the .455 Webley. Saying it’s so doesn’t make it so, but the Empire made use of the cartridge for the next 32 years.

Until recent years countless thousands of top break .38 S&W revolvers lurked in bureau drawers and on closet shelves. I am of the opinion that most of these may be now found lurking at the next Dallas Market Hall Gun Show or a show nearest you. The twentieth century saw some really nice .38 S&W revolvers brought out that still could serve as a collectible shooter, historical military curiosity, or could even be pressed into service as a close-in defense weapon.

Performance? Not the Worst Handgun One Could Be Stuck With.


The Baltimore City Police apparently though enough of the .38 S&W to arm its policemen with the aforementioned Smith & Wesson Single Action First Model, which served them from 1876 until 1917.

The stubby .38 is roundly sneered at by all who even bother to comment on it. Modern factory loads as provided by Remington and Winchester are anemic out of concerns that certain reckless elements in the gun fraternity (like yours truly) will fire their product in the many weak, black powder era, top break revolvers. This practice has been warned against for years. I’ll be frank. I have never heard of anyone blowing himself up firing the suicide specials, however I’ll add my caution to refrain from firing them too. Bits of iron in one’s head are an unnecessary impediment to good health and the wrong way to get one’s daily allowance. For myself, I enjoyed the use of a Smith & Wesson .38 Double Action Second Model for some years, the factory letter of which indicated it was shipped to Simmons Hardware, Chicago, Illinois in 1882. This was a spunky little revolver. The trigger pull, both single and double action, was much heavier than a modern product from that firm. It stayed tight for the years that I owned it, probably firing 5 or 6 boxes of ammo during that time. It was my first small concealable handgun and I used to carry it when arrowhead hunting or fishing. It proved handy to dispatch a copperhead snake on an occasion.

I would feel about as well armed with a .38 S&W revolver as with a .380 auto. The best way to utilize it would be as a “face gun”. One might look at the .38 S&W revolver as “fists in an aerosol can.” It’d be easier and safer to “spray” one’s assailant in the face with some .38 lead than to close with him in order to throw a punch. The slugs are relatively heavy at 146 grains and most loads I’ve encountered contain bullets of very soft lead. The blow inflicted by such a bullet at short range would be distressing to say the least and very likely disabling as well.

A “high performance” option for the .38 S&W owner would be the 200 grain lead round nosed bullet. I obtained a quantity of old Western 200 grain copper plated factory loads a few years ago. These were much more impressive than current factory fodder and were wonderfully accurate in my Webley Mark IV. Unfortunately they are no longer manufactured.

A “low performance” load is the similar, yet very slightly smaller in diameter, .38 Short Colt. This load can be used in revolvers chambered for .38 S&W but there is no particular advantage in doing so. Featuring a 125 grain bullet, it stumbles from the barrel with all the velocity that could be provided by a wrist rocket sling shot.

The .38 S&W shown with the .38 Short Colt.

In some of the relatively modern solid frame revolvers the .38 S& W could be improved by judicious hand loading. I would willingly use such hand loads in the British military top break revolvers such as the Webley or the Enfield or the 20th century solid frame swing-out cylinder models of Colt or Smith & Wesson make. Of course one will carefully work up any handloads in any .38 S&W or for that matter any firearm, won’t he?

The .38 S&W doesn’t share the .38 Special’s dimensions being slightly larger in diameter. The .38 S&W bullet has a diameter of .359 -.360 and a case diameter of .386. The .38 Special’s bullet diameter runs .357 and the case is .379. Sometimes the .38 S&W may be chambered in .38 Special guns and may be fired in perfect safety. Sometimes they won’t quite fit and forcing the issue will result in a stuck cartridge and the need to find something to prod them out of the cylinder.



The Inevitable Ballistics Chart

2-inch barrel

146 grain factory load 728 fps
200 grain factory load 737 fps
130 grain.38 Short Colt load 610 fps
British military 178 grain load (published data) 630 fps
Handload 158 grain lead SWC/Unique 739 fps

Two manufacturers who still load .38 S&W are Remington and Winchester. Buffalo Bore has only recently added a rather peppy loading of .38 S&W to their high-performance cartridge line-up, a 125 grain lead semi-wadcutter with an advertised velocity of 1000 fps. While it's hard to imagine a company taking up the .38 S&W at this late date, I applaud their efforts and intend to get enough of this ammunition to conduct tests.
www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350

I have three revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W: a Smith & Wesson 4th Model DA, a Colt Bankers Special snub, and a World War II era Webley Mark IV with the standard 5 inch barrel. The Bankers Special and the Webley and eagerly function with all loads I’ve fired. The Webley is quite accurate but requires the heavy 200 grain bullets to impact the target in accordance with the sight picture. Brought out in 1926, the Bankers Special must have been marketed to wimpy bankers who could not manage the recoil of the Detective Special taking the .38 Special cartridge, which was also brought out by Colt about the same time. The Bankers Special, which was built on the Police Positive frame, was also marketed in .22 for the sissiest of bankers. The .22 variation is quite scarce.


Should You Shoot Yours?


Good, usable revolvers in .38 S&W include:

British military top-break revolvers

Enfield (some mfg’d at Albion Motors)
Webley Mk IV

Smith & Wesson models

Perfected Model (S&W’s last top break design)
.38 S&W chambered Victory, Military & Police (WWII British contract revolvers)
Regulation Police
Terrier
Model 11 (fat chance of finding one)
Model 32
Model 33

Colt models

New Police
Police Positive
Bankers' Special
Detective Special (some few were made in .38 S&W)
Official Police (a few produced on the eve of WW II for a British contract)
Model 1873 Single Action Army (Yeah, you saw right - a few were so chambered)

Ruger Service Six (probably the very strongest of .38 S&W revolvers)

MODERN Harrington & Richardson top break models:
Model 925/935 Defender (mfg’d from 1964 to1986-stay away from 19th century H&R’s)

Though I would shoot the 19th century Smith & Wesson break-open revolver to a limited extent I can’t recommend it to the Forum readership. Any other brand (and there are jillions of names) of these break-open revolvers should be retired to a display case. This includes the Belgian or other Continental European makes.

This modest cartridge may not be on the cutting edge of handgun technology but it played its own part in taming the American West and was in wide use throughout the world in bygone times. I confess to wishing that a few updated loads would be introduced for it but consider myself lucky that it is still loaded at all. If one owns a revolver chambered for the .38 S&W, give it some range time. Just for fun.

Several series of handloads were tested over the chronograph screens over a couple of hours late Saturday afternoon and a couple more hours late Sunday afternoon.

Loads were not uniformly tested in 10-round series due to constraints dictated by the supply of 200 grain bullets but rather were tested in 6 to 10 round series. Therefore standard deviations may be less than truly meaningful in all instances, but they were calculated.

Cartridge cases used for these tests consisted primarily of Remington (R - P headstamped) nickel plated cases with one additional box of older Remington-UMC brass cases also used.

In all tests, the cartridge cases gave normal ejection and exhibited normal primers except for the heavy Unique and Herco load when fired in the Webley. A single pierced primer apiece for each load was observed. It was noted that the firing pin has some roughness that needs smoothing, nonetheless this could be an indication that pressure was straining things a bit.

Loading these long and heavy bullets in the .38 S&W is not for the careless hand loader with haphazard habits and no attention to detail.

It was arbitrarily determined to disregard the recommended .38 S&W cartridge overall length of 1.20" when producing handloads using long 200 grain bullets. Measurements taken of factory loads proved even shorter, coming in at 1.170". If the seating die was adjusted to factory .38 S&W cartridge lengths in preparation to seat 200 grain bullets, then a compressed or near-compressed powder charge would result. Considering the range of fast-burning powders useful for handloading the .38 S&W, compressing a charge of powder with the bullet would very likely cause a high-pressure event to perhaps dismal conclusions if the resulting loaded cartridge was fired.

A cartridge overall length of 1.273 was settled on as a proper compromise between allowing enough internal space to accommodate all powder charges while insuring the bullets would not crowd the the chamber mouths of the cylinders of the test revolvers.

Each and every powder charge thrown was hand-weighed and any correction was adjusted for. This may have contributed to the pleasingly small extreme spreads generally seen throughout the tests. Old reference works on the .38 S&W indicate it had a reputation for great accuracy and some target arms were turned out by the premier handgun manufacturers of the later 19th century. Perhaps the .38 S&W's extremely small case capacity coupled with low operating pressures contributes to uniformity and makes it a now-unheralded choice for accuracy work if housed in a well-made gun.

And so we come to the Mother Of All Chronograph Testing of the .38 S&W with an emphasis on the 200 grain bullet.

Colt Bankers Special with 2-inch barrel

Factory Load: Winchester 145 grain round-nose lead

742 fps Muzzle Velocity
177 ft/lbs Muzzle Energy
55 fps Extreme Spread
22.6 Standard Deviation

Factory Load: Winchester 200 grain round-nose lead (probably pre-war ammunition)

647 fps MV
186 ft./lbs ME
18 fps ES
8.4 SD

Hand loads used, primarily centered around experimentation with a 100 round batch of 200 grain .360" diameter cast lead round-nose bullets.

158 grain .358" cast lead semi-wadcutter, 2.5 grains Red Dot (from a batch loaded 11/23/95)

738 fps MV
191 ft./lbs. ME
25 fps ES
10.1 SD

200 grain Remington .358" lead round-nose, 3.1 grains Unique (from a batch loaded 11/16/95)

741 fps MV
244 ft./lbs. ME
80 fps ES
20.3 SD

All the following loads were produced with a 200 grain cast lead bullet as kindly provided by
LouisianaMan. This bullet differed from the Remington 200 grain component bullet in having a slightly more blunt nose profile.

2.0 grains Red Dot

620 fps MV
170 ft./lbs ME
37 fps ES
15.6 SD

2.2 grains W231

644 fps MV
189 ft./lbs ME
24 fps ES
10.3 SD

2.3 grains Green Dot

635 fps MV
179 ft./lbs. ME
30 ES
12.0 SD

2.4 grains (new) Unique

614 fps MV
167 ft./lbs. ME
59 fps ES
59.7 SD

2.7 grains Herco

Was attempted unsuccessfully. The chronograph gave "no-reads" and on three occasions bullets were stuck in the barrels of both revolvers just ahead of the forcing cones. This load is too light.


"Performance" .38 S&W Loading

The following loads could be considered as unofficial .38 S&W "+P" loads. These would only be suitable in quality late vintage Colt and Smith & Wesson solid-frame revolvers having swing out cylinders, in the Webley and Enfield .38/200 revolvers produced for British military contracts, or their commercial equivalents. Commercial Webley .38 revolvers were produced for many years prior to the adoption of the very similar military issue Enfield No. 2 Mk I in 1931. Early Webley .38 revolvers probably should not be fired using such loads. Any use of these loads in any 19th century revolver of top-break design would very likely come to grief.

A side-by-side test of "old" Unique and this new "cleaner burning" Unique was conducted during this part of the testing in order to discover any differences between the two. While it could only be an indication of lot-to-lot variations, when examined with results from similar chronograph tests in the .38 Special and the .45 ACP it tends to indicate that the new formulation of Unique is a bit more energetic. Old familiar Unique load data for a reloader's favorite cartridges should be retested by working up.

So-called "+P" efforts with the 200 grain bullet in the Colt

3.0 grains "Old" Unique

644 fps MV
184 ft./lbs ME
72 ES
30.3 SD

3.0 grains "New" Unique

689 fps MV
210 ft./lbs. ME
19 ES
7.1 SD

3.3 grains Herco

767 fps MV
261 ft./lbs. ME
31 fps ES
15.1 SD

Webley Mark VI with 5-inch barrel

Factory Load: Winchester 145 grain round-nose lead

712 fps MV
163 ft./lbs. ME
75 fps ES
32.2 SD

Factory Load: Winchester 200 grain round-nose lead
638 fps MV
187 ft./lbs. ME
42 fps ES
18.1 SD


Handloads

158 grain .358" cast lead semi-wadcutter, 2.5 grains Red Dot

714 fps MV
179 ft./lbs.
58 fps ES
24.1 SD

200 grain Remington lead round-nose; 3.1 grains Unique

725 fps MV
233 ft./lbs. ME
59 fps ES
26.0 SD

Handloads with 200 grain bullet provided by LouisianaMan

2.0 grains Red Dot

620 fps MV
170 ft./lbs ME
37 ES
15.6 SD

2.2 grains W231

603 fps MV
162 ft./lbs. ME
19 ES
10.5 SD

2.3 grains Green Dot

595 fps MV
157 ft./lbs. ME
40 ES
18.7 SD

2.4 grains (New) Unique

575 fps MV
147 ft./lbs. ME
10 fps ES
4.7 SD

So-called "+P" efforts with the 200 grain bullet in the Webley

3.0 grains "Old" Unique

635 fps MV
179 ft./lbs. ME
54 fps ES
25.4 SD

3.0 grains "New" Unique

659 fps MV
193 ft./lbs. ME
56 fps ES
20.4 SD

3.3 grains Herco

726 fps MV
234 ft./lbs. ME
52 fps ES
20.5 SD

Some Observations

These were velocity tests only. Penetration tests in water-filled gallon milk jugs and other ballistic "non-tests" could be conducted at a future date.

I was surprised to find that the 5-inch barrel of the Webley consistently clocked slower velocities than the 2-inch snub Colt. An examination of the Webley showed that the revolver has a somewhat larger barrel/cylinder gap than I had remembered. End-shake was apparent and the revolver could benefit from a shim.

It was curious how the light charge of Herco was a bust, too weak to propel the bullet reliably yet the maximum charge of Herco used gave the 200 grain bullet the highest velocities of the day. When one considers that the difference between the two charges is only 6/10ths of a grain it becomes apparent that cartridges with very small case capacities have less room for error.

Webley bore diameter slugs .360". Colt bore diameter slugs .359".

I've loaded .358" 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullets in the .38 S&W for years, using them in both of the test revolvers and enjoying perfect satisfaction at ranges to 15 yards. These bullets group quite well despite what is sometimes claimed on firearms forums about shooting undersized .38 Special bullets through the larger .38 S&W bore.

The Webley loves the 200 grain bullet and shoots it accurately and to point of aim. The lighter 145 grain factory loads and the 158 grain handloads shoot low. The Colt shoots the 200 grain bullet 8-10 inches high at 10 yards.

I cannot explain why the old 200 grain Remington .38 Special bullet used with 3.1 grains of Unique (741 fps from the Colt), as loaded in 1995, registered such a higher velocity when fired in the same chronograph session as the two different lots of Unique loaded to 3.0 (the fastest lot of Unique at 689 fps as fired from the Colt ). Bullet was different than LouisianaMan's batch in the following ways: diameter .002 smaller, bullet was longer, lube is different and the crimp may have been heavier on the Remington bullet (don't remember 18 years later).

Only a moderate crimp was utilized with this batch of 200 grain .38 S&W handloads. The case mouth was turned into the bottom of the second driving band just enough to maintain tension. No bullets jumped their crimps. Of course even with these heavy bullet loads the recoil of the revolvers is more of a push than an abrupt impulse.

The Bankers Special churned through the entire test with nary a bobble or complaint. With the 3.3 grains of Herco, it felt much like the Detective Special in recoil. The square butt frame makes it a non-issue.

To Summarize

The average runt .380 automatic pistol holds the same number of cartridges as the Bankers Special. The .380 bullets typically weigh 100 grains or less, giving the pistol a 600 grain payload when fully loaded. One the other hand, the very compact Bankers Special revolver can be loaded with 1200 grains of heavy lead and fling the bullets to adequate velocities.

Even the 5-shot Smith & Wesson Models 32 and 33, Terriers, Regulation Police, and general run of I-Frame and J-Frame .38 S&W revolvers can field 1000 grains of lead. Of course one has to reload the .38 S&W in order to gain performance of this sort.

What all this means is that the .38 S&W reigns supreme and the .380 eats dirt!

 

[novitiate]

What all this means is that the .38 S&W reigns supreme and the .380 eats dirt!

As I said, I wouldn't want to get shot with one. Not trying to gore your ox either. Can't compete with your wall of text but it's disingenuous to say the average .380 only holds 6. Perhaps if carried without a round in the chamber. Is that what you meant and if so, who carries that way? Anyways, enough said. It's a cool piece.

 

[nortac]

I bought my S&W M 29 back in the late '80s IIRC. While I rarely shoot it nowadays, I shot it a lot when I first bought it. I'd hate to pay today's prices for one.

 

[jar_]

OOOooo... I don't know. The .380 would have to get up pretty early in the morning to best the good ol' .38 S&W.

I posted this narrative some years ago just for fun after playing with the cartridge.

Cartridge Discussion: .38 S&W - Ghost From Bygone Times


What all this means is that the .38 S&W reigns supreme and the .380 eats dirt!

 

[Whiterook]

They made and still make so many of these that it will never be that special, but I do love my Government Model.

 

[Kilroy6644]

I think it would be easier to list the guns I WASN'T happy with. But if there's one standout that I am really glad I bought, it would probably be my Stevens Favorite Model 1915. After that it's hard to pick. My first interest in guns was military surplus. I'm pretty happy with all of those, in the sense that I'm happy with the guns themselves, and that I got them when I did, because the milsurp market has really dried up since I got started. But really, there's only a few that I regret buying, and the rest I'm very pleased with.

 

[noelekal]

As I said, I wouldn't want to get shot with one. Not trying to gore your ox either. Can't compete with your wall of text but it's disingenuous to say the average .380 only holds 6. Perhaps if carried without a round in the chamber. Is that what you meant and if so, who carries that way? Anyways, enough said. It's a cool piece.

Oh, I do have a crummy Kel Tec P3AT. Tried carrying it a few times, but didn't trust it to do the big job if it was called upon. It's been demoted to "yard gun" for pocket carry while mowing the lawn. I do only carry it with the six round magazine capacity including the one "up the spout," preferring not to top it off with a seventh cartridge.

Another neato gun here that's gratifying to own is a Remington Model 51 in .380 ACP from 1921. Its magazine capacity is seven rounds.




The comment about the .380 eating dirt was only intended as an insincere humorous dig at the burgeoning .380 fans back when the article was first written. I'm under no illusions that the .380 will be supplanted by the ancient .38 S&W.

 

[OkieStubble]

Oh, I do have a crummy Kel Tec P3AT. Tried carrying it a few times, but didn't trust it to do the big job if it was called upon. It's been demoted to "yard gun" for pocket carry while mowing the lawn. I do only carry it with the six round magazine capacity including the one "up the spout," preferring not to top it off with a seventh cartridge.

Another neato gun here that's gratifying to own is a Remington Model 51 in .380 ACP from 1921. Its magazine capacity is seven rounds.




The comment about the .380 eating dirt was only intended as an insincere humorous dig at the burgeoning .380 fans back when the article was first written. I'm under no illusions that the .380 will be supplanted by the ancient .38 S&W.

Demoted? I would think while mowing the yard is a perfect place for that Kel-Tec of yours?

 

[noelekal]

Demoted? I would think while mowing the yard is a perfect place for that Kel-Tec of yours?

Well ... it never has been a gun I was particularly happy about. Yard mowing is better than lying on the bottom of Lake Leon, which is where I considered flinging it after it again began misbehaving a couple years ago. It was a little stinker to break in to the point it'd run right. Worked fine for some years then began being balky again. I gave it a good talkin' to and hosed it out with brake cleaner and re-oiled it. It's straightened up again.

Guess it was the dust from the yard sifting down into the pocket of my shorts.

 

[OkieStubble]

Well ... it never has been a gun I was particularly happy about. Yard mowing is better than lying on the bottom of Lake Leon, which is where I considered flinging it after it again began misbehaving a couple years ago. It was a little stinker to break in to the point it'd run right. Worked fine for some years then began being balky again. I gave it a good talkin' to and hosed it out with brake cleaner and re-oiled it. It's straightened up again.

Guess it was the dust from the yard sifting down into the pocket of my shorts.

Gotta quit scalping your grass with the mower set too low.

 

[oc_in_fw]

Gotta quit scalping your grass with the mower set too low.

Down here in Texas, if you mow too short in Texas, your lawn will die (especially St. Augustine)

 

[OkieStubble]

Down here in Texas, if you mow too short in Texas, your lawn will die (especially St. Augustine)

Okie Land also.

 

[Bhugo]

I wish my Michigan lawn would die most years!

 

[Steve Gonso]

Glock 43

 

[jar_]

Don't have to worry. After the third lawn died I decided to go natural with wood chips acorns and leaves.

 

[noelekal]

Gotta quit scalping your grass with the mower set too low.

Mower's set high. It's just dry and hot here most of the growing season.

 

[Scarry Knight]

I just saw what someone paid several years after I bought a couple Bushmaster Carbon-15s. Feeling good about those. Below the Steyr is the Ruger PC-40 mentioned earlier. The 10-22 was a good buy for the WideField scope.

 

[HiPowerRon]

Smith & Wesson M28-2 Highway Patrolman