Passed from scary sharp to dangerously sharp

[Neurotopia]

I took the half hollow Dovo that richmondesi put an edge on (30k), CrOx'ed it since I didn't prefer rich's finish. The shaves were great. The edge started to dull a bit after a while and I refreshed it on my barber hone, which actually kinda ruined the edge. So today I did 90 passes on my C12K and 8 passes on CrOx.

Now this razor is easily the sharpest thing I have ever used. Sharper than off the 30K Shapton. How did this happen? I nicked my face roughly 10x and had numerous weepers and didn't feel a single thing. I cut the mole off my cheek and didn't even notice until I saw a stream of blood running down my face and neck. Yet there is absolutely no irritation (usually I can tell I shaved, but it's not razor burn) and it was as close a shave as I've ever gotten.

What gives?

 

[Chimensch]

The edge-forward motion on a hone carries the abraded metal back away from the edge while the spine-leading motion on a strop coated with CrOx carries the abraded metal forward towards the edge. You would have been OK had you stopped with the C12K, but the CrOx carried debris to the edge and made a very thin sharp extension, which is too dangerous to use and will soon break off. If I were you, I'd go back to the barber hone followed by the C12K and then stop.

 

[wdwrx]

Ouch!
Are you braggin' or complaining?

It's good to see someone can get such a scary edge from a C12K.
That's the hone I'm trying to get a handle on.

Wonder if a couple of shaves will smooth it out?

 

[Neurotopia]

I washed the blade thoroughly and wiped it down after the C12K but before the CrOx, so that can't be it. There was no abraded material to carry back to the edge when I hit the CrOx.

 

[Neurotopia]

Ouch!
Are you braggin' or complaining?

I... don't know.

It's good to see someone can get such a scary edge from a C12K.
That's the hone I'm trying to get a handle on.

Wonder if a couple of shaves will smooth it out?

I guess I'll find out. One thing I did just realize is I normally shave wearing my glasses, but today I had on my contacts. I know that changes my plane of focus and whatnot, so maybe I was thrown off a bit observing myself in the mirror and the angles were different.

 

[Chimensch]

I washed the blade thoroughly and wiped it down after the C12K but before the CrOx, so that can't be it. There was no abraded material to carry back to the edge when I hit the CrOx.

What I meant to say is that the CrOx draws out a very thin edge of sharp material that will soon break off.

 

[Seraphim]

I have a different opinion.

I find that if a razor is honed to too fine a level on a hone, that is what leads to a fragile edge.

For example, here is a edge finished to 0.1um on diamond lapping film:

After one shave, with no stropping, it looks like this:

Pretty ragged.

I never have really enjoyed shaves off of the ultra-high grit stuff, and now I can see why. They put "too fine a point on it", which degrades during the shave itself, and therefore give a "harsh" feel.


I then took that same edge shown above, and gave it some laps on my hanging Chromox strop. It smoothed out the edge as shown here:

And here is that same edge after a shave:

No degradation of the edge can be seen.

I've never used a Shapton 30k, but perhaps it falls into the "too fine" an edge category?

I usually hone to the 1um level (similar to the Shapton 16k grit), and then hit up the chromox strop, and I like the keeness and comfort those edges provide.

 

[ambrose]

Seraphim and Chimensch are completely right.

I too have experimented with this and with the new addition to my experiments a microscope. This has shown me the same exact thing Seraphim and Chimensch are talking about. You can get it extra crazy sharp but it wont last long at all. Ive toned down my edges and enjoy the long lasting smooth edges of a nakayama maruka kiita.


Seraphim, sweet explanation and awesome pics

sorry for my horrible pic, its an edge off my J-nat not stropped yet, plenty sharp but very smooth

 

[forum9]

I don’t like any edge that has not been stropped. I think that only a good fine leather strop really smooths an edge effectively.

I also find that if during the "honing on a stone" process you put in a light circular stroke at the back end of the stroke, you will stop the development of a burr.

I think that all pastes develop a burr in the way Chimensch describes and I also think that they are short lived and too sharp. I see them as a "quick fix" and not something I would ever recommend.

The more I have experimented with hones, the more I have come to the conclusion that hones finer then 12K to 16K are totally unnecessary. A good strop will smooth an edge better than any superhone and any sharpness beyond 16K is not necessary. I actually think that stropping on leather will bring an edge back down to this level anyway. If a super fin has been developed with a paste, I think the leather strop will snap it off and actually leave an uncomfortable edge.

My experience however is with softer steeled vintage razors.
The pastes and finer hones may work well with the modern harder steels and in this arena, I have had little experience.

 

[Seraphim]

Stropping effects:

Here is that ultra-fine 0.1um edge after a shave, but with no stropping afterwards:

And here is the edge after leather only stropping, it straightened out the raggedy parts a bit:

Then I took the slightly less refined edge (same edge finished on chromox on hanging strop), shown here pre-shave:

And here it is after a shave, no stropping at all pre, or post shave:

I then had another shave, but did my usual stropping before and after the shave. Looks just about the same condition as shown above:

Same edge, after four shaves, with stropping before and after:

Same condition

 

[ambrose]

Seraphim right on man I do love those pics !

 

[Neurotopia]

I'm not following something--

Yes, it was hones on a Shapton 30k. I CrOx pasted it. After a number of shaves, it needed a touch up. I used the barber hone, was disappointed in the edge, went back to the C12k for 90 laps and then CrOx'ed it again. Shouldn't lapping that much on the 12k polish out the 30k's finish?

 

[Seraphim]

I'm not following something--

Yes, it was hones on a Shapton 30k. I CrOx pasted it. After a number of shaves, it needed a touch up. I used the barber hone, was disappointed in the edge, went back to the C12k for 90 laps and then CrOx'ed it again. Shouldn't lapping that much on the 12k polish out the 30k's finish?

Right.

Just like my example above. Going from the 0.1um lapping film/hone finish to a 0.5um hanging strop chromox finish got rid of the "too fine" an edge issue.

 

[Chimensch]

I'm not following something--

Yes, it was hones on a Shapton 30k. I CrOx pasted it. After a number of shaves, it needed a touch up. I used the barber hone, was disappointed in the edge, went back to the C12k for 90 laps and then CrOx'ed it again. Shouldn't lapping that much on the 12k polish out the 30k's finish?

My basic theory (which is not universally accepted by any means) is that an edge can be too sharp and too refined. Going back to your original post, if you had stopped after the C12K and not gone to the CrOx, you would probably have been OK.

 

[Seraphim]

My basic theory (which is not universally accepted by any means) is that an edge can be too sharp and too refined. Going back to your original post, if you had stopped after the C12K and not gone to the CrOx, you would probably have been OK.

But isn't the original post about what a very nice, very sharp, irritation free shave he got off of the 12k plus cromox?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Seraphim is the hardest working man in Shave-business.

Seriously, I have no idea where you get the patience to do all these high quality pics, much less the testing, but I do appreciate it.

 

[Chimensch]

But isn't the original post about what a very nice, very sharp, irritation free shave he got off of the 12k plus cromox?

You're actually right but I focused in on the fact that he nicked himself 10 times and had numerous weepers, which to me would be a failed shave, and that the razor was too sharp. If he was saying that he liked the way the edge was then I totally misunderstood.

 

[riooso]

I have a little bit of a different view of the pictures, new guy that I am. The 0.1 micron edge does have a little bit of a ragged edge after the shave but if you were to compare the scale of the edge that is 0.5 micron Chromox strop it is magnitudes rougher.... so the 0.1 micron edge is still smoother with less cross sectional area on the cutting edge.

I have personally not found a 0.1 micron edge more fragile on the razors that I am using. I have a LeGrelot that I use to get 6 days before I needed a touchup, but with the 0.1 micron film that I am now using I easily get 12 or 13 days before I need to touch up the edge. IMHO going to a finer grit just polishes the edge. I am probably full of crap but the shaves that I get from the 0.1 are the smoothest that I have ever gotten, they are truely like cutting butter. I have to lay the blade down a little more and lightened my pressure even more but once I adapted my techniques I have no more problems with cuts. The pressure that I use is about the same as I used to use on a DE.

Thanks,
Richard

 

[82R100]

You're actually right but I focused in on the fact that he nicked himself 10 times and had numerous weepers, which to me would be a failed shave, and that the razor was too sharp. If he was saying that he liked the way the edge was then I totally misunderstood.

That was my take on it, too. The use of the word "dangerously" in the subject line was another tip-off.

- Chris

 

[Seraphim]

I have a little bit of a different view of the pictures, new guy that I am. The 0.1 micron edge does have a little bit of a ragged edge after the shave but if you were to compare the scale of the edge that is 0.5 micron Chromox strop it is magnitudes rougher.... so the 0.1 micron edge is still smoother with less cross sectional area on the cutting edge.


Thanks,
Richard

I agree somewhat with your assesment. What I see is that the chromox edge is indeed more blunt, and does have some degree of roughness.

For a sense of scale, here is a hair HHT at the same magnification:

You can even see the striations in the cleaved portion caused by the razor edge.


The conclusion I am drawing is that the edge is slightly more rounded off, yet compared to the scale of the hairs it is cutting, it is still plenty sharp to cleave through them. And the similar surface roughness feels different because is is more on the surface of the cutting edge, as opposed to at the very unsupported tip of the bevel edge.

Of course we will all have to conduct further research!