- Thread starter
- #21
I do like the option to mount it in my car. And just pull the holster out and go.
Open carry holster for S&W SD9VE
- Thread starter Toothpick
- Start date
- Status
I have the mount in my truck and the wife's car right under the steering column. We both have tinted windows as well and it's virtually invisible. Many times, I will put my pistol there while driving on long trips just for comfort, then re-holster in my IWB when I have to stop and get out.
Did someone say crossdraw?
R. Grizzle specimen in Horsehide.
Excellent stuff.
YMMV/FWIW/Forgive my long winded answer.
The executive summary is NO to SERPA, YES to Safariland ALS or GLS.
Any number of agencies and respected trainers have banned the SERPA for the issues previously cited. See a massive thread below on the SERPA.
Banning the SERPA
While the “odds” of the holster being “jammed” shut or one shooting themselves might be quite low, the “stakes” involved if one does so are quite high.
Below is the response I wrote in the above referenced thread some 6+ years ago to a trainer who was getting started in the industry. I stand by those words today. Pleas note I am not your atty. I am not giving you legal advice and any opinions expressed are mine alone.
“Mr. Bell,
Thank you for your service, past present and future.
Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.
More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.
I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.
I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.
Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.
On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.”
The consensus answer for an “open carry” holster with retention is the Safariland ALS or GLS.
RE: Open carry, I am unaware of any respected national class firearms trainer that recommends open carry when concealed carry is available.
The executive summary is NO to SERPA, YES to Safariland ALS or GLS.
Any number of agencies and respected trainers have banned the SERPA for the issues previously cited. See a massive thread below on the SERPA.
Banning the SERPA
While the “odds” of the holster being “jammed” shut or one shooting themselves might be quite low, the “stakes” involved if one does so are quite high.
Below is the response I wrote in the above referenced thread some 6+ years ago to a trainer who was getting started in the industry. I stand by those words today. Pleas note I am not your atty. I am not giving you legal advice and any opinions expressed are mine alone.
“Mr. Bell,
Thank you for your service, past present and future.
Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.
More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.
I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.
I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.
Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.
On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.”
The consensus answer for an “open carry” holster with retention is the Safariland ALS or GLS.
RE: Open carry, I am unaware of any respected national class firearms trainer that recommends open carry when concealed carry is available.
Thank God I have never been a respected trainer from a respected agency.
Gun stuck in Safariland ALS holster
Gun stuck in Safariland ALS+SLS holster - AR15.COM
Safariland ALS Defective.
Safariland ALS Level 1 Holsters Defective? - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com
Safariland ALS Malfunction
Safariland ALS Malfunction
Safariland holster sticking
Safariland holster sticking - The Firing Line Forums
Caution About Safariland GLS Holsters
Caution About Safariland GLS Holsters | Active Response Training
Warning: Safariland GLS can be dangerous
Have you ever seen someone poor dirt and gravel into the finger release of a Serpa holster and cause lock up? I have seen it done and have personally witnessed the Serpa holster actually have lock up and the pistol could not be removed.
Have you ever seen dirt and gravel poured into the thumb release of the ALS or GLS holsters and cause lock up? I have seen it done and have personally witnessed the ALS and GLS holsters actually have lock up also and the pistols could not be removed from wither holster.
Even though your list of LE agencies is very small and might not even represent 1% of all LE agencies or the over 1 million police officers who will carry their duty pistols in a huge list of many different types of duty holster. The Serpa can be locked up. especially without training and having dirt and gravel poured into it's operating mechanism.
However, the ALS and GLS holsters from Safariland can also be locked up without proper training and also with dirt and gravel poured into their operating mechanism.
My questions are these:
1. What are the national percentages and averages of all 3 of these holster designs?
2. I'm already thinking ahead, by suggesting to you, that the Serpa has been out years longer then the ALS or GLS so even why the percentages will still be very low, they will be higher then the other two.
3. Did you know, the Army actually issues Serpa Leg rigs and Chest rigs to many of their outfits? I'm thinking soldiers in far away places will have more trouble with dirt and gravel then civilians and LEO's in our cities? Yet the Army isn't phased by their small percentages if they have any?
4. One can find isolated incidents, of all three holsters with the exact same troubles if one looks.
5. How many of those you listed who have banned the Serpa, banned them because of actual experiences and high percentages? And how many of your list have banned the Serpa because they also, only heard rumors from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a forum just like the one you linked from the top of your post?
6. Do you know how many police departments have also banned EoTech's? All because one single soldier in Iraq experienced 'Thermal Drift' from his EoTech in 140 degree temerature and another Special Forces operator experienced Thermal Drift in 40 below conditions in the Kush Mountains?
6. Yet thousands of LEO's turned in their EoTechs just because of those stories and none had experienced any thermal drift for themselves in their mild mannered temps of their lower 48's?
I would suggest, no national LEO "respected" organizations have compiled or documented enough stats or percentages to pass down a death sentence to Serpa for the non use on law enforcement. So until then, My department and it's firearms instructors, will let their SOP's reflect that we give our uniform policies the continued choice of the Serpa, and/or GLS level III retention holsters for duty officers.
And we will retain the right to change, until our department has experienced any of these type of negative incidents with our officers or their equipment.
simon1
Self Ignored by Vista
Thank God I have never been a respected trainer from a respected agency.
Gun stuck in Safariland ALS holster
Gun stuck in Safariland ALS+SLS holster - AR15.COM
Safariland ALS Defective.
Safariland ALS Level 1 Holsters Defective? - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com
Safariland ALS Malfunction
Safariland ALS Malfunction
Safariland holster sticking
Safariland holster sticking - The Firing Line Forums
Caution About Safariland GLS Holsters
Caution About Safariland GLS Holsters | Active Response Training
Warning: Safariland GLS can be dangerous
Have you ever seen someone poor dirt and gravel into the finger release of a Serpa holster and cause lock up? I have seen it done and have personally witnessed the Serpa holster actually have lock up and the pistol could not be removed.
Have you ever seen dirt and gravel poured into the thumb release of the ALS or GLS holsters and cause lock up? I have seen it done and have personally witnessed the ALS and GLS holsters actually have lock up also and the pistols could not be removed from wither holster.
Even though your list of LE agencies is very small and might not even represent 1% of all LE agencies or the over 1 million police officers who will carry their duty pistols in a huge list of many different types of duty holster. The Serpa can be locked up. especially without training and having dirt and gravel poured into it's operating mechanism.
However, the ALS and GLS holsters from Safariland can also be locked up without proper training and also with dirt and gravel poured into their operating mechanism.
My questions are these:
1. What are the national percentages and averages of all 3 of these holster designs?
2. I'm already thinking ahead, by suggesting to you, that the Serpa has been out years longer then the ALS or GLS so even why the percentages will still be very low, they will be higher then the other two.
3. Did you know, the Army actually issues Serpa Leg rigs and Chest rigs to many of their outfits? I'm thinking soldiers in far away places will have more trouble with dirt and gravel then civilians and LEO's in our cities? Yet the Army isn't phased by their small percentages if they have any?
4. One can find isolated incidents, of all three holsters with the exact same troubles if one looks.
5. How many of those you listed who have banned the Serpa, banned them because of actual experiences and high percentages? And how many of your list have banned the Serpa because they also, only heard rumors from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a forum just like the one you linked from the top of your post?
6. Do you know how many police departments have also banned EoTech's? All because one single soldier in Iraq experienced 'Thermal Drift' from his EoTech in 140 degree temerature and another Special Forces operator experienced Thermal Drift in 40 below conditions in the Kush Mountains?
6. Yet thousands of LEO's turned in their EoTechs just because of those stories and none had experienced any thermal drift for themselves in their mild mannered temps of their lower 48's?
I would suggest, no national LEO "respected" organizations have compiled or documented enough stats or percentages to pass down a death sentence to Serpa for the non use on law enforcement. So until then, My department and it's firearms instructors, will let their SOP's reflect that we give our uniform policies the continued choice of the Serpa, and/or GLS level III retention holsters for duty officers.
And we will retain the right to change, until our department has experienced any of these type of negative incidents with our officers or their equipment.
I was at the range with a couple of Constables and one had the index finger release on the side of his holster. He had problems getting it out...several times.
Just more reasons to go with a good leather thumb break and not the plastic combat tupperware holsters. The more crap you put on a holster the more potential for problems.
Just sayin'.
My Responses are in brackets
My questions are these:
1. What are the national percentages and averages of all 3 of these holster designs?
[Unknown]
2. I'm already thinking ahead, by suggesting to you, that the Serpa has been out years longer then the ALS or GLS so even why the percentages will still be very low, they will be higher then the other two.
[Unknown]
3. Did you know, the Army actually issues Serpa Leg rigs and Chest rigs to many of their outfits? I'm thinking soldiers in far away places will have more trouble with dirt and gravel then civilians and LEO's in our cities? Yet the Army isn't phased by their small percentages if they have any?
[I do know that big Army has issued the SERPA. I also know that many units prior to deployment have chosen Non SERPA holsters for the reasons mentioned. I also know that the SERPA is no longer used by many smaller units whose mission profiles have them more likely to be using a pistol than other units.]
4. One can find isolated incidents, of all three holsters with the exact same troubles if one looks.
[I would respectfully assert that the problems with the SERPA are more widespread and profound than with the ALS/GLS well beyond the fact that more of them are "in service." I acknowledge my opinion is based on a collection of data points, not subjected to peer review etc. Below is the purported study the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center prepared which was highly critical of the SERPA
https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf
5. How many of those you listed who have banned the Serpa, banned them because of actual experiences and high percentages? And how many of your list have banned the Serpa because they also, only heard rumors from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a forum just like the one you linked from the top of your post?
[Broadly speaking unknown. Regarding the large metropolitan police force I mentioned earlier, the ban was based on the collective first hand experience of the training staff with complete buy in from the chain of command. I also know that it has been reported that trainers from Tier I Units to include Larry Vickers, Kyle Defor, Kyle Lamb, Jeff Gonzales and Paul Howe, ban or severely limit the use of the SERPA in their classes based on "lock up " issues and the need for the trigger finger to release the weapon from the holster. ]
6. Do you know how many police departments have also banned EoTech's? All because one single soldier in Iraq experienced 'Thermal Drift' from his EoTech in 140 degree temerature and another Special Forces operator experienced Thermal Drift in 40 below conditions in the Kush Mountains?
[Unknown. I would note it is a matter of public record that EO-Tech admitted it knew about thermal drifting under extreme conditions for years and failed to disclose the information to the DoD as it secured millions of dollars worth of contracts. As such, they were fined several million dollars for their conduct.]
6. Yet thousands of LEO's turned in their EoTechs just because of those stories and none had experienced any thermal drift for themselves in their mild mannered temps of their lower 48's?
[Thermal drift was a known issue here in the midwest where you can have 90/90 days ( 90 degree temps/(90 humidity) and temps well below zero with a windchill.]
Presuming for the sake of argument that both the SERPA and the ALS/GLS holster "lock up" at the same rate, the critical difference is with the SERPA, your trigger finger is doing something other than indexing along the slide of the gun or actuating the trigger before the weapon is fully presented. That is not the case with the ALS/GLS system.
Therefore, the chances of a negligent discharges are demonstrably higher.
Having used both systems in high round count training situations, the SERPA does nothing better than the ALS/GLS system and has the the trigger finger moving toward the trigger well before the gun is pointed downrange.
To the OP and others: read the linked threads and come to your own conclusions. Be safe and well.
My questions are these:
1. What are the national percentages and averages of all 3 of these holster designs?
[Unknown]
2. I'm already thinking ahead, by suggesting to you, that the Serpa has been out years longer then the ALS or GLS so even why the percentages will still be very low, they will be higher then the other two.
[Unknown]
3. Did you know, the Army actually issues Serpa Leg rigs and Chest rigs to many of their outfits? I'm thinking soldiers in far away places will have more trouble with dirt and gravel then civilians and LEO's in our cities? Yet the Army isn't phased by their small percentages if they have any?
[I do know that big Army has issued the SERPA. I also know that many units prior to deployment have chosen Non SERPA holsters for the reasons mentioned. I also know that the SERPA is no longer used by many smaller units whose mission profiles have them more likely to be using a pistol than other units.]
4. One can find isolated incidents, of all three holsters with the exact same troubles if one looks.
[I would respectfully assert that the problems with the SERPA are more widespread and profound than with the ALS/GLS well beyond the fact that more of them are "in service." I acknowledge my opinion is based on a collection of data points, not subjected to peer review etc. Below is the purported study the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center prepared which was highly critical of the SERPA
https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf
5. How many of those you listed who have banned the Serpa, banned them because of actual experiences and high percentages? And how many of your list have banned the Serpa because they also, only heard rumors from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a forum just like the one you linked from the top of your post?
[Broadly speaking unknown. Regarding the large metropolitan police force I mentioned earlier, the ban was based on the collective first hand experience of the training staff with complete buy in from the chain of command. I also know that it has been reported that trainers from Tier I Units to include Larry Vickers, Kyle Defor, Kyle Lamb, Jeff Gonzales and Paul Howe, ban or severely limit the use of the SERPA in their classes based on "lock up " issues and the need for the trigger finger to release the weapon from the holster. ]
6. Do you know how many police departments have also banned EoTech's? All because one single soldier in Iraq experienced 'Thermal Drift' from his EoTech in 140 degree temerature and another Special Forces operator experienced Thermal Drift in 40 below conditions in the Kush Mountains?
[Unknown. I would note it is a matter of public record that EO-Tech admitted it knew about thermal drifting under extreme conditions for years and failed to disclose the information to the DoD as it secured millions of dollars worth of contracts. As such, they were fined several million dollars for their conduct.]
6. Yet thousands of LEO's turned in their EoTechs just because of those stories and none had experienced any thermal drift for themselves in their mild mannered temps of their lower 48's?
[Thermal drift was a known issue here in the midwest where you can have 90/90 days ( 90 degree temps/(90 humidity) and temps well below zero with a windchill.]
Presuming for the sake of argument that both the SERPA and the ALS/GLS holster "lock up" at the same rate, the critical difference is with the SERPA, your trigger finger is doing something other than indexing along the slide of the gun or actuating the trigger before the weapon is fully presented. That is not the case with the ALS/GLS system.
Therefore, the chances of a negligent discharges are demonstrably higher.
Having used both systems in high round count training situations, the SERPA does nothing better than the ALS/GLS system and has the the trigger finger moving toward the trigger well before the gun is pointed downrange.
To the OP and others: read the linked threads and come to your own conclusions. Be safe and well.
Excellent post David. It's great to see you posting again. I enjoyed reading your counter post on this subject and found your HS link regarding the FLETC inquiry of the Serpa Holster, absolutely interesting and fascinating. While I have too many questions about the research into the Serpa to list here and I understand this info and discussion might be boring to most.
Some of the things I found curious in that HS article are.
1. While the Serpa used was a level II holster, and considered to be an off duty type holster for concealed carry and civilian carry. The Safariland holster they used as a test model against the Serpa level II was a Safariland #6280. Which is also a level II. However, the Safariland #6280 is also a full sized LE Duty Holster and is much more robust and sturdier built and designed than the level II Serpa. It also, only has a hood which is pushed forward over the top of the pistol before the draw stroke can be performed.
2. I am very curious as to why the level II ALS or GLS that also has a push button release mechanism like the Blackhawk Serpa wasn't used? Does the FLETC not want to show any testing or results that would also show them to have the exact same trouble as the Serpa?
3. The level II Serpa and level II ALS and GLS care carried by civilians. But the Safariland #6280 level II is only a duty holster designed for law enforcement and only used by law enforcement on their duty belts. Why would the FLETC use that holster as a comparison in testing?
Well, I love official article's like that. Definitely makes your well articulated points more convincing than the forums we were linking earlier. So kudos to you for that!
The article definitely got my curiosity cooking. So I decided to do a bit of experimenting on my own.
1st: I took my unloaded Glock 19 from where it sits while off duty in it's Uncle Mike's Pancake holster.
And used it for a little experiment. I just so happened to have and use a Blackhawk Level III Serpa on my web gear duty belt for my Class C uniforms, which we will call 'Street Gear' for easier reference.
I also happened to have and use, a Safariland model #6360 Duty Holster which is the Level III ALS that you have referred to and show preference with. This holster is made with Patent Leather as it is used when wearing my Class A and Class B Uniforms, which I will call 'Parade Gear' for easier reference.
I also happened to have and use, a Safariland model #6360 Duty Holster which is the Level III ALS that you have referred to and show preference with. This holster is made with Patent Leather as it is used when wearing my Class A and Class B Uniforms, which I will call 'Parade Gear' for easier reference.
Here are both Duty Holsters The 'Serpa' and the ALS with the pistol locked down in both.
I put on the Street Gear web belt which holds the Blackhawk Level III Serpa Holster. I purposely tried to draw the pistol from the Serpa out of "proper sequence." In order to do this, I also had, to "purposely" "go against my training" in order to "gain" an improper sequence and draw.
The pistol locked up in the Serpa holster and would not move. And as I "continued" to "go against" my training, as I continued to try and pull the pistol to create "duress" just as the article you posted suggested in their testing. I found "it did create extra tension" in the trigger finger, so when the pistol did finally release on the draw under that increased tension, my finger did want to gravitate towards the inside of the pistol's trigger guard. So, "my findings" were the exact same as the findings in your posted article.
HOWEVER, When I put on the 'Parade Gear' patent leather belt which holds the Safariland Level III ALS Holster. I purposely tried to draw the pistol from the ALS out of "proper sequence." In order to do this, I also had to "purposely" "go against my training" in order to "gain" an improper sequence and draw.
The pistol locked up in the ALS holster and would not move. And as i "continued" to "go against" my training. as I continued to try and pull the pistol to create "duress" just as the article you posted did with the Serpa "but not with an ALS for comparison." I found, it also, "created extra tension" in the trigger finger which is still located on the outside of and along the side of the ALS holster, "even though" the ALS holster doesn't have a finger release tab like the Serpa does.
However, to my surprise and shock, while I continued to struggle to get the pistol out of the ALS holster with a thumb release tab, my trigger finger STILL had increased tension along the side of the holster. So when the ALS finally released the pistol on the forced draw, my trigger finger, still gravitated towards the inside of the pistol's trigger guard, EXACTLY! like it did with the Blackhawk Serpa!
Isn't that interesting! Both holsters, one with a finger release and the other with a thumb release, still created duress while in lock up and BOTH still created too much tension in the trigger finger while both trigger fingers are both still on the outside and along the side of BOTH holsters.
So under my own experiment and hands on research, thanks to the wonderful article you linked @dojpros (David) I found the article to be correct about the Blackhawk Serpa. However, the article did not test or compare the Safariland ALS to the Serpa. I suggest to you, that if they did, they would have had the same findings as the Serpa.
In my honest and professional opinion? I would suggest that if we are going to warn the sub forum here about the Serpa, we should also warn about the ALS having the EXACT same problem. But we both know, both holsters are not going anywhere. Maybe it isn't a design flaw with the Serpa or the ALS, but it is a training issue with both?
It seems to me, there are people looking into a few isolated incidents with the Serpa but haven't yet looked into the same with the ALS? I got the exact same results with the trigger finger going into the trigger guard under duress and tension with both. It looks like to me, any holster is capable of that if the person is not trained to not fight against ANY holster design, that won't immediately release. Or, firearms instructors need to make sure, there is plenty of repetitions and draw strokes when teaching the importance of the proper sequence for a finger release or a thumb release.
Because once that struggle and duress starts from improper sequence? those people are going to tighten their trigger fingers along the sides of BOTH holsters. Regardless where the release button/tab is located, and when it does release, BOTH of their fingers are going to end up inside the trigger guard.
The pistol locked up in the Serpa holster and would not move. And as I "continued" to "go against" my training, as I continued to try and pull the pistol to create "duress" just as the article you posted suggested in their testing. I found "it did create extra tension" in the trigger finger, so when the pistol did finally release on the draw under that increased tension, my finger did want to gravitate towards the inside of the pistol's trigger guard. So, "my findings" were the exact same as the findings in your posted article.
HOWEVER, When I put on the 'Parade Gear' patent leather belt which holds the Safariland Level III ALS Holster. I purposely tried to draw the pistol from the ALS out of "proper sequence." In order to do this, I also had to "purposely" "go against my training" in order to "gain" an improper sequence and draw.
The pistol locked up in the ALS holster and would not move. And as i "continued" to "go against" my training. as I continued to try and pull the pistol to create "duress" just as the article you posted did with the Serpa "but not with an ALS for comparison." I found, it also, "created extra tension" in the trigger finger which is still located on the outside of and along the side of the ALS holster, "even though" the ALS holster doesn't have a finger release tab like the Serpa does.
However, to my surprise and shock, while I continued to struggle to get the pistol out of the ALS holster with a thumb release tab, my trigger finger STILL had increased tension along the side of the holster. So when the ALS finally released the pistol on the forced draw, my trigger finger, still gravitated towards the inside of the pistol's trigger guard, EXACTLY! like it did with the Blackhawk Serpa!
Isn't that interesting! Both holsters, one with a finger release and the other with a thumb release, still created duress while in lock up and BOTH still created too much tension in the trigger finger while both trigger fingers are both still on the outside and along the side of BOTH holsters.
So under my own experiment and hands on research, thanks to the wonderful article you linked @dojpros (David) I found the article to be correct about the Blackhawk Serpa. However, the article did not test or compare the Safariland ALS to the Serpa. I suggest to you, that if they did, they would have had the same findings as the Serpa.
In my honest and professional opinion? I would suggest that if we are going to warn the sub forum here about the Serpa, we should also warn about the ALS having the EXACT same problem. But we both know, both holsters are not going anywhere. Maybe it isn't a design flaw with the Serpa or the ALS, but it is a training issue with both?
It seems to me, there are people looking into a few isolated incidents with the Serpa but haven't yet looked into the same with the ALS? I got the exact same results with the trigger finger going into the trigger guard under duress and tension with both. It looks like to me, any holster is capable of that if the person is not trained to not fight against ANY holster design, that won't immediately release. Or, firearms instructors need to make sure, there is plenty of repetitions and draw strokes when teaching the importance of the proper sequence for a finger release or a thumb release.
Because once that struggle and duress starts from improper sequence? those people are going to tighten their trigger fingers along the sides of BOTH holsters. Regardless where the release button/tab is located, and when it does release, BOTH of their fingers are going to end up inside the trigger guard.
Last edited:
I cannot speak to the "duty" style holster you use. My concerns re the SERPA v. the ALS/GLS are on the platforms more geared for CCW/"Open Carry" that only have the "one" retention device i.e. The SERPA's outboard trigger finger release v. the ALS inboard thumb nub or the GLS inboard release.
The latest anti SERPA Compendium. In my mind, the trigger finger should be doing only two things, being extended along the slide or actuating the trigger. It should not be involved with the routine release of the weapon from the holster.
The Serpa Compendium | Active Response Training
The Serpa Compendium | Active Response Training
“Just more reasons to go with a good leather thumb break and not the plastic combat tupperware holsters. The more crap you put on a holster the more potential for problems.“
Yes. Old school wisdom again rears its revered head.
Consider....the aforementioned gizmo holsters are designed primarily for police/military/tactical type applications.
Those individuals who work within the aforementioned environments are gonna carry (for the most part) what they are issued. Yes??
I shall continue to carry what I prefer in what I prefer.
Even if it’s something a tad “overwhelming”...or “underwhelming” for that matter
Black bears are not impressed with stuff you may learn at Thunder Ranch.
Last edited:
I might be missing something.. but, isn't that what it's supposed to do!
It may well be, and that is the problem. Unfortunately the thing trying to remove the firearm is a human.
simon1
Self Ignored by Vista
Black bears are not impressed with stuff you may learn at Thunder Ranch.
I was black bear hunting one time and had an Indian guide. I was carrying a Marlin Guide Gun, .45-70. I noticed him looking at my rifle and I said "Do you think that's enough gun?"
He shook his head a bit, kinda sighed, and said "Hell...we used to kill 'em with sharp sticks."
Good one.....
- Status
Similar threads
