What's new

One for our LEOs . . . and CCW holders

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
Maybe...head adjacent? Are you saying being almost out of my peripheral vision and having his aim a foot to one side of me would have allowed someone - alone in a car - to get the drop on even a semi-competent policeman? Because that I definitely disagree with. I don't think that set of circumstances could have ended any other way whether it was aimed right at the perp or just in a slightly safer direction.

Just in my opinion an unnecessary risk.

In your own words sir, You said, you took an unnecessary risk of not telling the officer, you had a gun; and then flashing him your gun. But say his risk of pointing his weapon at you was unnecessary...

When you flashed that gun, the only person that was put at risk, was you. When the officer pointed his gun at you, the only person at risk, was still you. That is exactly how it is supposed to work and the reality of the matter.
 
Again, not arguing that point. My point is that aiming slightly adjacent to my head would not have put him in ANY danger, and would have put myself in less. This is not Afghanistan or even Chicago. There hasn't been a murder in this town or any one very near it in over a decade. We don't have gang-bangers running around killing people here. Maybe it's different where you live.

And I will say again - I did NOT flash the gun. To my knowledge, that term means to purposely display a gun. Not at all what I did or would ever do.
 

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
Again, not arguing that point. My point is that aiming slightly adjacent to my head would not have put him in ANY danger, and would have put myself in less.

So, we are going to keep insisting on not arguing what you did that made that situation unsafe for you, but keep arguing instead, what the officer did to make it unsafe for you?

1. No justification for not telling an officer you have a gun and then flashing it.

2. Absolute justification for the officer to draw his service weapon and point it at you.

This is not Afghanistan or even Chicago. There hasn't been a murder in this town or any one very near it in over a decade. We don't have gang-bangers running around killing people here. Maybe it's different where you live.

No sir, no difference. There are plenty of people, who run around with a sense of entitlement where I live also.



And I will say again - I did NOT flash the gun. To my knowledge, that term means to purposely display a gun. Not at all what I did or would ever do.

Flash, show, expose, uncover etc, etc... No reason for word games.
 
Last edited:

martym

Unacceptably Lasering Chicken Giblets?
32 year veteran officer here!
I’d like to give you 2 stories
One as a police officer
One as a private citizen

Many many years ago I stopped a pickup with 4 males sitting on the front seat.
As I contacted the driver I was scanning the interior and the 4 fellows. I saw a gun on the center hump on the floor.
I don’t even remember my firearm coming out of the holster. I had all four place their palms flat on the ceiling and explained to them that if they reached for the gun I would defend myself.
They kept yelling that it was a toy. It was all black and looked real so they were treated as though it was real.
I had no portable radio and no ability to call for assistance.
The driver used his left hand to open his door and I had all 4 fellows slide out of the vehicle and lay face down on the pavement. I still remember them shouting/crying that the pavement was burning them.
I shut the truck’s door and walked backward to my unit and called for assistance. Once help got there; after quite some time we handcuffed all 4 and then I checked the pistol. It was a toy!
All were uncuffed and the driver received a citation for his violation.
They complained to me about the street burning them and my not treating them right.
I complained to them for doing something stupid that may have caused me to shoot one or more of them and make me have to live with that the rest of my life. 10-8

If I as a police officer stop someone and they do not advise me they are armed and I see a weapon I am treating them as though their intentions are bad and I will go into survival mode!!
If that means I point my weapon at your head (I train center mass) then so be it. I have no idea who you are, what you may have done, why you are carrying, and why you chose not to tell me. I will point my weapon at you until such a time as you are secure and no longer a threat and then we can sort it out!! But not until then. Action is much faster than reaction and if my weapon is pointed directly at you and you choose to attempt to take my life I just have to place my finger on the trigger and defend myself.

Not judging just telling you how I respond and how many officers respond in a situation like that!!

That’s all I gotta say about that!!

Earlier this year we were traveling back and forth to Houston every 2 weeks on our days off for my wife’s follow ups after having a brain tumor removed. On one of the trips I was stopped for speeding. My wife and I were both armed. The trooper approached from the passenger side. It was daylight. I had my hands on the steering wheel and my wife had hers on the dash.
The trooper introduced himself, advised I was stopped for speeding, and asked for my license and insurance. I told him that my insurance was in the center console and he told me to go ahead and get it. I then told him that before I move I want him to know that we are both armed.
He told me to leave the weapon where it is and go ahead and get my insurance and license. He asked my wife where her weapon was and she told him her purse. He told her to put her hands down but not to touch her purse. He began small talk and then walked to his unit and returned with a warning.

Courtesy and common sense go a long way.

marty
 
Yeah. God forbid it's ever necessary, but if I ever need to shoot anyone, I will DEFINITELY be putting my pistol back in my IWB holster or wherever IMMEDIATELY afterward. And then proceeding to look as non-threatening as possible. I would think sitting down and putting my hands on my head would be a good move.


No, just no. The gun goes to the ready position and you move to cover until the situation is assessed as safe--then it is reholstered. If you are currently training to reholster after firing, you might want to reconsider what happens when the bad guy's unseen buddy makes an appearance. Ideally, whoever you're with(or you) will also phone 911 and give them your description while reporting the crime so that any responding officer has at least a vague idea of which party is which.
 

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
Have you heard up there that Dallas is implementing a shooting review board that has members that have NO law enforcement training or experience, or legal training or experience? Just regular citizens that have no idea what goes on. That is going to be a nightmare. No wonder Dallas is short about 250 officers.

Iknowright?
 

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
No, just no. The gun goes to the ready position and you move to cover until the situation is assessed as safe--then it is reholstered. If you are currently training to reholster after firing, you might want to reconsider what happens when the bad guy's unseen buddy makes an appearance. Ideally, whoever you're with(or you) will also phone 911 and give them your description while reporting the crime so that any responding officer has at least a vague idea of which party is which.

Excellent post
 
No, just no. The gun goes to the ready position and you move to cover until the situation is assessed as safe--then it is reholstered. If you are currently training to reholster after firing, you might want to reconsider what happens when the bad guy's unseen buddy makes an appearance. Ideally, whoever you're with(or you) will also phone 911 and give them your description while reporting the crime so that any responding officer has at least a vague idea of which party is which.

Yes, aware of that. I meant after everything is over - i.e. assessed as safe.
 
It is pretty common knowledge that the majority of people who live in these parts are all within arms reach of some sort of firearm just about every waking minute. I know it, my barber knows it, the butcher knows it....for sure every local law enforcement officer knows it. Last time I was stopped for a traffic violation, the deputy asked for my license. Said “sure...but just so you know I’m carrying a gun” (news flash..uh huh.). Deputy asked where; told him “right hip”. He then just asked me “...you’re not gonna shoot me are you?”
I assured him I had no plans on doing so. All went well thereafter.
 
So, we are going to keep insisting on not arguing what you did that made that situation unsafe for you, but keep arguing instead, what the officer did to make it unsafe for you?

1. No justification for not telling an officer you have a gun and then flashing it.

2. Absolute justification for the officer to draw his service weapon and point it at you.



No sir, no difference. There are plenty of people, who run around with a sense of entitlement where I live also.





Flash, show, expose, uncover etc, etc... No reason for word games.

I agree, no reason for word games - which it seems you are purposely doing in this instance. A more correct description of what actually occurred would be unintentionally exposed. If you want to keep arguing the point that's up to you but I'm ready to drop it.

And again, I NEVER argued that I didn't share blame. You seem to be taking that ball and running with it, and that is unfair. Already mentioned that I feel I mostly deserved what happened and didn't hold the officer at fault or hold it against him multiple times now. I only said I would have preferred not to have a gun jammed directly in my face when I showed no threatening behavior at all. I didn't say a word to the guy when it happened, as I understood that he was understandably nervous/scared.

And this was one time many years ago that I didn't remember to let the guy know, not like I make a habit out of it. I've been pulled over multiple times and either the officer asks himself or I have told him I am carrying. If the officer would have asked that would have also probably completely mitigated the problem.

You are making some very large assumptions with this entitlement garbage.
 

simon1

Self Ignored by Vista
I just watched the Ayoob traffic stop video. I've only been stopped once in over 30 years. One time I was on the way home, in full uniform, and a trooper pulled me over for going 8 mph. over the limit...way out in the country. It was Johnny W., and he had a trainee with him. I pulled over and Johnny started walking up to my car, and I leaned out the window so he could see my face and part of the uniform and said "Watch it Johnny! He's got a gun." Johnny had the funniest look on his face for a second before he processed what had just happened then waived me on saying "Get on home and slow your butt down" then walked back to his car with a big grin on his face. :lol:

I still know most of the police, deputies, troopers and Texas Rangers here. Even the new Ranger says "Hi Mike" when he sees me, before I properly met him, and I've been to his office a few times. I'm still prepared to show my concealed license and tell where I'm carrying at if I do ever get stopped.

I can't remember how many times I've unholsted on someone when things seemed hinky. Some complained, but the Chief smoothed it over when he found out the situation and realized I was justified in taking the precaution.
 

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
I agree, no reason for word games - which it seems you are purposely doing in this instance. A more correct description of what actually occurred would be unintentionally exposed. If you want to keep arguing the point that's up to you but I'm ready to drop it.

And again, I NEVER argued that I didn't share blame. You seem to be taking that ball and running with it, and that is unfair. Already mentioned that I feel I mostly deserved what happened and didn't hold the officer at fault or hold it against him multiple times now. I only said I would have preferred not to have a gun jammed directly in my face when I showed no threatening behavior at all. I didn't say a word to the guy when it happened, as I understood that he was understandably nervous/scared.

And this was one time many years ago that I didn't remember to let the guy know, not like I make a habit out of it. I've been pulled over multiple times and either the officer asks himself or I have told him I am carrying. If the officer would have asked that would have also probably completely mitigated the problem.

You are making some very large assumptions with this entitlement garbage.

I believe you that exposing your gun was unintentionally done @eKretz. But the fact remains it was you that set the chain of events into motion, not the officers “intentional” action, of pointing his gun at you.

The only point I am making, that I hoped you would reason with me to see, is where you said, “you would share blame with the officer?”

I’m sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. That officer shares no blame at all with you whatsoever. And your actions being unintentional, won’t change that fact, period.

You are completely right, that we should just drop it. No reason to beat a dead horse.
 
Well, that escalated quickly.

Sorry for derailing my own post, guys. Just thought that @eKretz 's post needed a response.

As police officers, we do this dozen's of times a year. Driving up on people with guns and not knowing who the bad or good guys are, is common practice for us. There is no difference in an police officers training, that really, would make much difference for a good guy with a CCW or a good guy, with no-CCW.

Many of us non-LEOs have a hard time wrapping our brains around what a day at work can be for you fellas, which is why I'm ready to cut them as much slack as they need during a stop.

Your post makes my point for me regarding my original post. And why we CCWs need to think about these things from an officer's perspective, and how that relates to our own safety.

You're a better man than I, my friend. I just play music for thousands of people, and so far no one's wanted to shoot me. (There's still time.)
 

OkieStubble

The Men Who Sniff at Goats
Well, that escalated quickly.

Sorry for derailing my own post, guys. Just thought that @eKretz 's post needed a response.



Many of us non-LEOs have a hard time wrapping our brains around what a day at work can be for you fellas, which is why I'm ready to cut them as much slack as they need during a stop.

Your post makes my point for me regarding my original post. And why we CCWs need to think about these things from an officer's perspective, and how that relates to our own safety.

You're a better man than I, my friend. I just play music for thousands of people, and so far no one's wanted to shoot me. (There's still time.)

David's harp play, quieted, calmed and stilled, the restless and troubled soul of King Saul. I'm sure, your music would do the same for me my friend. :)
 

Ad Astra

The Instigator
It's a good read.

I make a point of knowing which states are "must inform" when traveling.

Hm, LEO question: Why shouldn't I consent to a car search? I break NO laws, period (seriously. Not even the speeding they just pulled me over for). If they are looking for stolen TVs or something, my cooperation will be a LEO assist. I don't have those TVs ... drugs, alcohol or anything else. I would never waive my rights, but I'd help a cop if I could.


AA
 

simon1

Self Ignored by Vista
It's a good read.

I make a point of knowing which states are "must inform" when traveling.

Hm, LEO question: Why shouldn't I consent to a car search? I break NO laws, period (seriously. Not even the speeding they just pulled me over for). If they are looking for stolen TVs or something, my cooperation will be a LEO assist. I don't have those TVs ... drugs, alcohol or anything else. I would never waive my rights, but I'd help a cop if I could.


AA

Because the cops will plant something on you...haven't you heard? :lol:

Really, though. I don't have a problem with giving consent to search, it can be withdrawn at any time.
 

Ad Astra

The Instigator
Because the cops will plant something on you...haven't you heard? :lol:

Really, though. I don't have a problem with giving consent to search, it can be withdrawn at any time.

If they have a "throwdown" pistol, well. I can always use another gun!


AA
 
It's a good read.

I make a point of knowing which states are "must inform" when traveling.

Hm, LEO question: Why shouldn't I consent to a car search? I break NO laws, period (seriously. Not even the speeding they just pulled me over for). If they are looking for stolen TVs or something, my cooperation will be a LEO assist. I don't have those TVs ... drugs, alcohol or anything else. I would never waive my rights, but I'd help a cop if I could.


AA

TX is a shall inform state, though the legislature removed the penalty for failure to do so a few years ago.

Was your vehicle purchased new and no other person has ever had unsupervised access to it? If it was bought used, there isn't any way to know something was dropped or hidden unless you dismantle it and look yourself. Same if any has ever had unsupervised access(car wash, valet, etc.). If it's in your vehicle, you're almost certain to be charged for it.
 

nortac

"Can't Raise an Eyebrow"
I was pulled over once for a minor traffic violation and upon informing the officer that I was armed with a permit, he asked me to exit my truck and place my hands on the hood while he disarmed me, which I did without incident, and he unloaded my weapon. Although he didn't do a strict search of my vehicle he looked around the inside briefly and noticed the folding Kabar knife in it's sheath, strapped to my seatbelt. He asked me why I had a knife on my seatbelt. I explained that in case I ever flipped my truck in a ditch and was suspended by the seatbelt, I could cut my way out. A lot of our backroads in Louisiana have deep drainage ditches along the sides of the road with little or no shoulders. People have drowned in vehicles upside down in ditches or canals. Also, seatbelts usually won't unclip under tension, particularly if you are suspended upside down with your full weight on the mechanism. He nodded approvingly, I wonder if he has a knife on his seatbelt now? I was let go with a warning and told not to reload my pistol until they left the scene. And even when I get a ticket, I thank the officer for keeping us safe! I know what a thankless job it is most of the time. Been there, done that.
 
Top Bottom