Nice!
Once Upon A Stubble
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A stable blade is a smooth blade. It doesnt seem to matter how many times I say that there are always some that disagree. You however, seem to have become one of the enlightened ones.
I never shave with zero pressure, close to it sometimes, but thats dictated by blade exposure. I'll use less pressure with my Grande for example than I will a Tech because my Grande has much more blade exposure, less pressure is needed.
Using a Tech I can use very light pressure and more passes, or increase the pressure and need less passes. The key is finding the balance between those two for the most comfortable shave.
I never shave with zero pressure, close to it sometimes, but thats dictated by blade exposure. I'll use less pressure with my Grande for example than I will a Tech because my Grande has much more blade exposure, less pressure is needed.
Using a Tech I can use very light pressure and more passes, or increase the pressure and need less passes. The key is finding the balance between those two for the most comfortable shave.
My smoothest, cleanest, longest lasting shaves have all been with paragons of rigidity (RazoRock BlackHawk V2 and Hawk V3OC; Fatip Grande; Gillette thin-handled Post-War Tech), but so have my absolute harshest ones (same razors plus Yaqi Mellon atop a sweet Maggards MR3 handle).
I think it might be because there’s no flex interfering with what I got right and also no flex saving me from what I’ve done wrong.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Good answer!
I've never been a proponent of the blade rigidity thing, because it doesn't seem to influence my shaves that much. My primary razor doesn't rely on rigidity, yet gives me great shaves. My Merkur 41C and Wilkinson Sword Classic razor both clamp extremely rigidly and also give good shaves, but I found the Fatip Grande to be an awful razor, which had less comfort than using a DE shavette.
I'm always sceptical of any "reasons" that one razor is superior to another, because if they were true, we'd all be using the same gear. I think it's important to know which razors work best for me, but it's not as important to know why. I don't really know why the Grande was such a face chomping razor for me. The Parker 22 Interceptor was probably of similar aggression, without trying to plane my face smooth, and other hard clamped razors give me a smooth irritation free shave. I've also used straights and shavettes which are ALL blade exposure. The Grande and me were simply not a good match.
Some work well for us (razors, blades, soaps, brushes), and some don't. Trying to reason why, sometimes raises more questions than answers, and can lead others AWAY from their best shaves, instead of towards them. In this vein, while I'd never get myself an adjustable DE, nor a slant, I wouldn't want to steer others away from it either. I only tend to throw in negativity about something that didn't work well for me, as a counterpoint against comments encouraging others towards them.
Once you've got the basic competence mastered (which Chi now obviously has), then feel free to explore at your own will, but never take anyone's comments of X being better than Y as anything other than their own personal opinion. Even if I said it
By all means try what others love, and examine for yourself their reasons why, but try what they hate too. Their most hated kit, might become one of your favourites.
They can be more unforgiving for exactly the reason you stated.
Absolutely. And the Gillette thin-handled Post-War Tech in my possession has been found to shamelessly spoil me by being designed for a nigh-steep angle. But is it the angle, the rigidity, or the exposure that’s making it so awesome?
What puzzles me is how some folks can use a razor with thin, narrow rails on the baseplate and get smoother ATG passes than with other razors sporting more blade support. People with more experience and steadier hands are getting results that defy my feigned understanding of razor design. IIRC, Comis went from a Rockwell 6 to a Merkur 34G and got improved shaves.
With AimlessWanderer’s experiences with the Edwin Jagger, plastic Wilkinson, and Fatip razors, there is some confirmation of rigidity’s importance (Wilkies last longer in the plastic razor and Fatips aren’t that rigid once one leaves shallow planes), but that’s me guessing. If he wasn’t trying to wring infinite shaves out of NOS British Wilkies, I’d have less places to throw my confirmation bias.
I think its the lack of blade exposure. Theres enough to get things done, but no more. Razors that lack blade support, combined with neutral to negative blade exposure can also be smooth because there just isnt enough blade available to flex. As blade exposure increases, so does the tendency for the blade to flex. Clamp a 12" ruler in a vise at the 4" mark and impart flex to it from the opposite end. Do the same with a yardstick. The longer the piece is, the less pressure it takes on the end to impart flex to it.
The same could be said for cutting a steak with a plastic knife vs a steel steak knife. If you cut the steak slowly enough and dont try to force it, the plastic knife will cut it, eventually. A proper steak knife on the other hand, is the much better tool.
Some people have easier to cut whiskers than others. There are those than can even have a great shave with an R41 and a Derby Extra blade, even when shaving ATG. I wish I was one lol.
The post war Tech was manufactured in the millions and, I believe, was designed so that anyone that picked one up could have a good shave with no drama. That being the case, they do what they were designed to do.
I do not think however, efficiency was a key design element. The lack of efficiency is a compromise for ease of use.
48 hours since last shave and back to 'just shaving', for the moment...
Post war tech/Fat handle. Fresh Feather.
Proraso Green.
Maggard synthetic.
Standard 3 pass++++ shave.
First pass N-S. Second pass S-N. Third pass directly ATG. No buffing at any point.
First clean up at and below my jawline, buffing ATG.
Second clean up pass below my jawline, buffing ATG.
Third clean up pass and back over my jawline at a 45° angle and buffing over my swirls.
Fourth clean up pass lol, 45° the opposite direction and buffing over my swirls.
In the end I needed to start all over again hahaha.
I have very comfortable skin and a very nice BBS shave, but I damn well better after that much work! Mild razors are just that mild. Easy on the skin but not what I'd call efficient. It was an enjoyable shave, its hard to dismiss that much comfort, but at the same time its maddeningly frustrating.
I'll use it again the next time I feel like whittling a Totem Pole...or something.
Al shaves differently that most others. His "hover technique" as I tend to call it, calls for the blades edge to glide gently over the skin while, ideally, as I understand it, neither the cap or SB touches his skin.
If I was to try and shave like that with my Grande, it would also feel like my hairs were being pulled out by the root. The razor itself, isnt doing any work other than holding the blade. The razors design and geometry is such to assist the blade by means of mechanical advantage in doing its job. Without any give in the blade and no mechanical advantage from the razor itself, the only things that can happen are either the hair gets sliced cleanly, best case with a blade that matches the hair composition, or, it will tug.
The cap and comb are there for reasons other than holding the blade. As Cal mentioned just the other day, the OC/SB is designed to help stretch the skin tighter as the razor is being used.
Here's an illustration showing how that works:
By "riding the guard" to start with, you're stretching the skin in advance of the blade. By "riding the cap" you're pushing the blade into squeezed up skin (a great recipe for razor burn).
That is the action that makes blade gap effective. Assuming pressure applied a constant, the larger the blade gap, the steeper the angle of edge to skin and the more effective the cut because as the skin travels through that gap, theres more of it and the larger that wave of skin is as it travels through the gap aiding in helping the hairs stand up.
A problem I can have shaving steep is that it doesnt cause my hairs to lift but instead to remain or become even closer to my skin. Imagine a piece of foam sheet with needles stuck in it at a 45° angle. Now stretch that sheet and you'll be able to watch those needles lay down closer to the sheet. Then roll that sheet like a wave and watch those needles stand up. Just like the hackles on an animals back. Thats caused by the skin bunching up. The hairs are forced up because theres no place else for them to go. A similar action is employed by the use of blade gap. As the skin flows through that gap, it causes the hairs to stand up and away from the skin and is what causes my irritation to grow as gap and/or number of passes, are increased.
At a shallow enough angle you're using the cap, or more accurately the curve of the cap, to create a reverse blade gap between the edge of the blade and the cap. That, by consequence, forces the hairs to stand up as the razor moves across the skin, lifting them for cutting.
Notice the hone angle of the edge of the blade.
Now imagine the red line as the level of my skin in relation to the hone angle of the edge. They're the same.
I can only achieve the same angle of edge to skin as the hone angle with the cap pushed into my skin. That by consequence of action, taught me about my hairs standing up. The more pressure I apply to the cap, the shallower the angle of the razor is in relation to my ideal edge to skin angle, the more each hair stands up, the closer the shave.
This is also the key design element of GEM razors with their flat caps. If I place either my Bullet Tip or my MMOC with the cap flat against my skin, the blades edge is likely .060" above my skin. Only applying pressure will make the blade engage by making my skin rise to meet the edge. They are designed to do exactly that. Using my Grande as shallowly as I sometimes do, does the exact same thing and, I'd bet, at the exact same angle of edge to skin.
That is the trick to successful and comfortable shaves done first pass ATG. Get the angle/pressure combination just right and the edge of the blade meets the hair at the base and, because its such an ideal edge to skin angle, you dont even feel the blade because it acts like an air hockey puck on a layer of thin slick lather.
Bit of a tirade but thats what happens when I'm bored!
Mike does it again! 
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Slight weakness in your argument here, Mike. Blade exposure through the line drawn across where the cap and comb finish, doesn't necessarily correlate with the distance from where the blade was last in contact with the razor. I think, if I've got the geometry right in my head, a razor with a shallower shaving angle will have a greater unsupported blade length than a razor with a steeper neutral angle, irrespective of blade exposure. You might want to check that against your macro pics though.
Yup. Trying, but not necessarily succeeding, to not use the cap or comb as anything other than stabilisers on a kids bike. The aim is for me to get the blade at skin level, without the cap or comb disturbing the natural lay of the skin, particularly on the final pass. The first pass may be different depending on stubble length, as longer stubblemakes the comb ride high, which in turn makes the blade ride high. This would probably explain why Mike would experience this...
Comb high = blade high = tugging.
This is particularly relevant to Mike, as he's a 48 hour shaver, not a daily shaver. If I shave daily, I can go featherlight all the way, but with 2 to 3 day stubble, I might need to be a little more heavy handed for the first pass to coax the blade down to skin level.
It can be used to, but I'm not sure it was initially designed to. I think it was initially just to make it a safety razor, so the blade could only dig in a small amount, unlike a straight. I think comb (or cap) riding was something that was discovered and developed afterwards. Much like the pop out cup holder on a computer
Either way, the more blade that is exposed, the less rigid it will be. Where its measured from really doesnt enter into it. Hence the ruler vs yardstick comparison. It matters not if they're each clamped at 4"s or 8"s. The one that has an end a further distance from the clamping point will flex more, assuming the same materials, thicknesses, densities et al.
Each 'pass' would be the same. The amount of increased pressure to overcome the hairs tendency to hold the razor away from the skin would seem minimal to me, but I dont shave like that so I cant really say. Assuming that as correct, an OC would offer 50% less resistance against the hair so 50% less resistance would be felt and 50% less pressure would be needed.
Now you see Al, science is telling you, you should be using an OC razor because its easier lol.
There is wide speculation on why safety bars and open combs were designed as they are but I suspect Cals SB explanation to be accurate. Open combs on the other hand I tend to agree with those that suggest they were designed to align the hairs to be cut. Exactly as a 'comb' would be used.
I’m not sure on that one. I was thinking of Dave-the-rave’s EJ 3one6 versus Mühle Rocca:
EJ 3ONE6 or Muhle Rocca V4. A tentative comparison.
1st shave with the Rocca V4. I have the R96 I think with the black handle. I'm going to compare it against the Edwin Jagger 3ONE6 throughout because they are similar, plenty folks have asked on Forums how they compare, and there's few if any direct comparisons. I must point out right here that I...
www.badgerandblade.com
“When a plan comes together, I love it.” -Hannibal Yoda.
I’ve tried and tried and I’ll keep trying, but that’s the fruits of the devil to my skin. Only a few, terrified passes of a straight; a few inefficient passes of a Yaqi Mellon; or too few passes of my Grande and Hawks have had limited success.
Getting nigh-close with the Tech as it lets me get similar shaving steeply without being scrapy.
Yes and no? Direct forces face a greater cross-section and lateral forces face a thinner cross section? There’s so much flexion of skin, hair, hand, and blade, pretending I think I know is problematic.
Tried that with my 89 clone. Sooo much more blade feel than expected. Did a good, job, too, but I’m playing with other toys for now.
Nice!
Science says you can develop experiments in an attempt to disprove your statement. @rbscebu says you can buy Titan ACRM-2 straight razors to increase your sample size.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
You forget, I already have one - well, two actually - same head, different handle.
I can get a good shave with it/them, but I enjoy the shave more with the Jagger. Putting the Merkur open comb on the Jagger handle is better than on its own handle, but the Jagger remains the primary razor.I do use the open comb for heavy growth, such as after several days not shaving, or redefining sideburns and goatee profile. It is also my 'overnighter' razor, which drops neatly in a pocket, when I don't need to pack a bag.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
We're not on the same page here...
A razor with a shallower angle, has the cap set back further from the comb. On a steeper razor, less unsupported blade length is required to reach the imaginary line between cap and comb. On a shallower razor, that imaginary line meets the cap further round, potentially meaning the blade has further to reach, due to the cap thickness being a bigger factor than on a shallower razor. That's my assumption, anyway.
EJ 3One6.
Rocca v4.
Virtually identical blade support designs. Exposure and gap may vary, design of the SB is certainly different. I dont personally see enough between the two designs to make a difference in my shaves and I already know they both lack sufficient blade support for me. The NEW LC has more blade support and it skipped. The R41 has about the same support, and it skipped much more. Due in part by the R41's generous blade exposure.
The original patent, by Merkur I believe, on that baseplate design and blade support system ran out a long time ago. This is why so many razors share it, albeit with slight differences, as in the safety bar shape and profile but to my mind they'll all shave in a similar fashion.
What he mentions about the propensity of the 3One6 to bite compared to the Rocca makes sense from the shape of the safety bars. The Rocca profile is reminiscent of Timeless but lacks the blade support.
You've tried it and it didnt work. "Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results..." Why am I reminded of that sentence? Oh yes, I remember now.... lol
If it doesnt work, it doesnt work. If I remember correctly however, you have yet to try a GEM.
What I meant to say in my previous post is, when I use a Tech, I use it at a neutral angle with as much pressure as I can without peeling skin so I dont need 16 passes for a shave that should take 3 or less.
I can also use them directly ATG and have but, with the amount of buffing needed, my arm gets tired and I need to pause for a snack lol.
Science also says, lots of people say lots of things. Myself being one of them lol. It's up to each of us to wade through it the best we can and find the little bits of good cheer that work for us.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Gotta have The 50% Advantage!
Three days is about my limit as to how much stubble I can comfortably remove with an open comb. I can do longer, but the first pass isn't particularly pleasant. An open comb sails through a lot easier, BUT it also doesn't offer any significant resistance once it reaches the hair I intended to keep.
I took only the Merkur 985 when I went on a cruise holiday a few years ago. With the rolling of the ship (we were taking gusts of 85 knots across the beam one night - everything that wasn't in a drawer, ended up on the floor), and the open comb, what started as a neatly trimmed full beard, became a Riker beard, then a goatee, then a slimmer goatee... still never cut myself though
Three days is about my limit as to how much stubble I can comfortably remove with an open comb. I can do longer, but the first pass isn't particularly pleasant. An open comb sails through a lot easier, BUT it also doesn't offer any significant resistance once it reaches the hair I intended to keep.
I took only the Merkur 985 when I went on a cruise holiday a few years ago. With the rolling of the ship (we were taking gusts of 85 knots across the beam one night - everything that wasn't in a drawer, ended up on the floor), and the open comb, what started as a neatly trimmed full beard, became a Riker beard, then a goatee, then a slimmer goatee... still never cut myself though
Increase the rigidity to NEW SC level and you could increase that three days to thirty.
Its crossed my mind to grow a beard just to watch it fall away with each stroke of my MMOC, like shearing a sheep lol.
I would bet that if I had a six month beard, I'd need 2 strokes from the top of my cheek to my jawline and another 3 strokes from my jawline to the base of my neck. I already know that at 100 hours its one long smooth stroke from the top of my cheek to the base of my neck and that stroke is done with ease like theres no whiskers there to shave.
With my Grande, its one stroke to my jawline and two more to the base of my neck. Unless my lather is especially thin, then its one stoke from my jawline down because the razor doesnt plug.
I need a fresh Feather blade in my R41 just to shave with it. Much beyond 48 hours with it and I'm not sure I could accomplish a shave without bleeding.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Rigidity matters not.
Forgive the residue, but here's the inside of the Wilkinson Sword Classic. Rigid. Hard clamped.
It's the closed comb riding high that lifts the blade and causes tugging on 3+ day stubble. This would struggle just as much as the Jagger. The rigidity wouldn't make a scrap of difference.
Here's the inside of the slightly more aggressive Razorine. Same story.
No, I don't polish my razors. There's a nice patina building on that now.
Here's the inside of the Merkur head (985 and 41C). That's as rigid as rigid gets!
Again, it's the open comb that can dive into the beard a short way, biting off more than intended. Notice I said a short way. When clearing heavy stubble, I'd still probably short stroke it - not in the frenzied scrubbing way, but I'd probably still need more of a chopping action than a full length wipe.
Open as the comb may be, my stubble isn't conveniently spaced tooth width apart
As such, it's still going to be riding up on stubble if I try to do a full length swipe. Then we're back to high comb, high blade, and tugging. I will NOT be applying high pressure to counteract that.If I wanted to take longer strokes, I'd have to lose the comb altogether.
I stand corrected. I was visualizing the blade independent of the overall design while still relying on so,em nebulous design.
In my idiot head, the Rocca looks more stable, but his ATG results suggest otherwise.
He’s recently got into Timeless steel and titanium bits.
You've tried it and it didnt work. "Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results..." Why am I reminded of that sentence? Oh yes, I remember now.... lol
I can’t predict and articulate the nuanced changes to be tried and evaluated with each outing, but your meme is deriding practice. Aside from his thoughts on economic activities, was Einstein the nihilist portrayed in that photo?
Nope. Tempted by them all, but having/storing another razor and blade type has been a strong deterrent. Many Bullet Tips, Lightweights, and MMOCs have almost found a new home, of course.
Two full and one clean up pass has been nice. If I can get a few more sessions in a row going ATG on my upper lip without weepers, I might be all set.
Now that it’s behaving for me, I see some ATG-only goes in my future. I’ll make some Arko pemmican if I do.
Yes! Find how variance in our mileage occurs and let that help lead our steps. Like don’t suggest Al get on the Fatip Lo Storto Originale bandwagon and do write to Cella about making less cherry scented croaps and more chocolate scented croaps and maybe an extra extra extra bio cream.
