Of interest to those who CCW

[nortac]

Analysis of an unjustified shooting resulting in a manslaughter charge, much food for thought to be found in the links embedded in the following article:
Modern Service Weapons | Your No-nonsense Information Source for Service Weapons, Gear and Training - http://modernserviceweapons.com/ .

 

[Acmemfg]

Good article. Well worth reading.
That whole incident was a mess from the get go.
All over a parking spot. Complete madness.

 

[Lightcs1776]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that life will never be the same if one has discharged his or her firearm, whether justified or not. I will rely on law enforcement as long as I do not believe there is eminent physical harm about to take place. At that point, and only then, the consequences of not taking action are greater than the consequences of using deadly force.

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[noelekal]

"Although there were ample cringe-worthy and chuckle moments provided by the lawyers and experts, the defendant received his guaranteed “day in court” and a “fair trial.” (Some educated observers might say maybe not. I do not share here my thoughts on defense counsel effectiveness, erroneous rulings by the trial judge, jury instruction errors, or improper prosecutor argument points I made mental note of for an appeal)."

Would be interesting to hear more about the court case. Cringe-worthy and chuckle moments with improprieties and error along with implications of ineffective counsel?

I remember watching that back when it occurred and feeling that the nitwits all ask for it. The "shooter" asked for it for irresponsibly picking the fight to begin with. A violated handicap parking spot and its protection sure isn't worth what he's gone through since and has yet to face. He also asked for it when he triggered the shot in a fit of pique over being shoved to the ground after the "shootee" saw the draw, paused and stepped back.

The "shootee" was also a nitwit and should have never taken measures to the extent that he did, escalating matters through blindsiding some stranger who was being mouthy and shoving him to the ground. His irresponsible action bought him way more than he bargained for.

The "shootee's girlfriend" shouldn't have been so selfish as to park in handicapped spaces to begin with. Her irresponsible disregard for rules weren't worth the sad and pointless results.

Ample prizes all around for bozos who play stupid games with two bozos effectively out of society's hair, one permanently. Did the girlfriend learn anything from this? Find out in the next exciting episode. I can't gen up any empathy for any of them.

 

[nortac]

While there are lessons to be learned from the linked article, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of good info available in the numerous links on this website/blog. I was previously unaware of this site until I received an email with that link.

Of particular interest is Steven Harris's Deadly Force Paradigm of CAN, MAY, SHOULD and MUST.

 

[noelekal]

While there are lessons to be learned from the linked article, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of good info available in the numerous links on this website/blog. I was previously unaware of this site until I received an email with that link.

Of particular interest is Steven Harris's Deadly Force Paradigm of CAN, MAY, SHOULD and MUST.

Nice suggested reading.

THE DEADLY FORCE PARADIGM REVISITED: CAN – MAY – SHOULD – MUST | Modern Service Weapons

modernserviceweapons.com

 

[PreachTheWord]

I was on a forum once (I have since left) where the questions was asked of who would shoot someone they caught breaking in their car. I was surprised by the number of participants who said they would shoot. I will only draw and fire if the danger to me or mine is IMMINENT. If wake up and night and hear someone breaking in my car, I'll stay in my safe house and call the police. Everyone in this scenario acted badly, but no one should suffer over a parking space. I recall reading that the Drejka had a history of policing this parking lot and loudly confronting anyone who parking in a handicapped space (even reportedly threatened to shoot a truck driver how did so). If he was offended by folks illegally parking in such spaces he should have left it to the police to handle. He was a civilian and should have behaved as such.

 

[Acmemfg]

The number of people who are badly informed about the proper use of deadly force is frightening.
Even more scary is when you consider that for whatever the reason YOU may find yourself the focal point of their misinformed action.
Indeed the victim here is not totally without blame but...the end result was not justified by any means. I doubt the victim had any idea how things were going to unfold, nor probably did the shooter. Tragic all around.

 

[Ad Astra]

Always carry bear spray! ... too.


AA

 

[OkieStubble]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that life will never be the same if one has discharged his or her firearm, whether justified or not. I will rely on law enforcement as long as I do not believe there is eminent physical harm about to take place. At that point, and only then, the consequences of not taking action are greater than the consequences of using deadly force.

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This was a great post. Perfectly articulated.

 

[oc_in_fw]

I was on a forum once (I have since left) where the questions was asked of who would shoot someone they caught breaking in their car. I was surprised by the number of participants who said they would shoot. I will only draw and fire if the danger to me or mine is IMMINENT. If wake up and night and hear someone breaking in my car, I'll stay in my safe house and call the police. Everyone in this scenario acted badly, but no one should suffer over a parking space. I recall reading that the Drejka had a history of policing this parking lot and loudly confronting anyone who parking in a handicapped space (even reportedly threatened to shoot a truck driver how did so). If he was offended by folks illegally parking in such spaces he should have left it to the police to handle. He was a civilian and should have behaved as such.

Agreed. Try to steal my car? It’s covered by insurance. Try to steal my grandchild? Different story altogether.

 

[ackvil]

So much depends upon the state law and how the local authorities interpret it. I lived in Pinellas County, where the incident took place. The local authorities when I lived there were against the stand your ground law and prosecuted cases other jurisdictions would not. I recall one case in which a burglar broke into a house and the homeowner retrieved a pistol from his nightstand. The homeowner was on the second floor and went down the stairs. He fired the gun once and killed the intruder. The DA filed charges saying the homeowner was in no imminent danger. No trial took place since a plea deal was worked out.

 

[OkieStubble]

The number of people who are badly informed about the proper use of deadly force is frightening.
Even more scary is when you consider that for whatever the reason YOU may find yourself the focal point of their misinformed action.
Indeed the victim here is not totally without blame but...the end result was not justified by any means. I doubt the victim had any idea how things were going to unfold, nor probably did the shooter. Tragic all around.

A couple of years ago, I was off duty on a day off, driving my own POV. I was on a hilly two lane road which had a 50 mph speed limit.

I came up behind another vehicle that was only going 25 mph. We were in a section of the road that was uphill so naturally, there were yellow no passing lines. I waited until a downhill portion of the road which allowed passing.

As I began my pass, the middle aged man suddenly sped up, which made it difficult to pass safely as I could see approaching traffic. I figured he decided to go the speed limit so I backed off of my pass and got back behind him.
Once I was behind him, he slowed down again, but this time to about 15 mph in a 50 mph road. We hit several hills again with no passing sections, so once again, I patiently waited for a safe section to pass.

As we began to crest the top of another hill, I waited to clear any on coming traffic and began a more positive and faster pass. Surprisingly, the middle aged man again, attempted to speed up to prevent my pass. However, I had too much momentum and overtook and completed the pass.

This action made that driver very angry, so he began to ride my bumper and honking his horn and appeared to be in a complete rage looking at him in my rear view mirror.

As I was coming up to a stop sign to stop, the driver behind me was so close to me raging, he ended up having to screech to a stop. His forward momentum slid his vehicle into my rear bumper, pushing my vehicle into the intersection of the 4 way stop.

As we got out of our vehicles, he already had his phone out calling 911, but he also had his Walther PPS out, pointing it at me. He began telling the 911 operator that he was a concealed carry and that he had me at gun point.

Anyway, to make a long story shorter, once the police department showed up in the city I work and live in, this middle aged man had to explain why he tried so hard to instigate a road rage incident and then feel justified to pull his gun and hold me at gun point after he rear ended me, pushing me into the intersection.

I definitely felt vindicated when he was arrested and booked. But I also couldn’t help feeling sorry for him at his arraignment when he went from thinking he was the one who was in the right, to realizing you can’t start a road rage incident and then think you are justified in pulling your CCW.

 

[OkieStubble]

Agreed. Try to steal my car? It’s covered by insurance. Try to steal my grandchild? Different story altogether.

Firearms training cannot teach this kind of common sense situational awareness. Firearms training and tactics is all good to have, but the very few who don’t have the reality check of common sense situational awareness and even more important, a basic and fundamental “awareness of self”, shouldn’t make the many who do have it and carry a gun look bad.

 

[Lightcs1776]

A couple of years ago, I was off duty on a day off, driving my own POV. I was on a hilly two lane road which had a 50 mph speed limit.

I came up behind another vehicle that was only going 25 mph. We were in a section of the road that was uphill so naturally, there were yellow no passing lines. I waited until a downhill portion of the road which allowed passing.

As I began my pass, the middle aged man suddenly sped up, which made it difficult to pass safely as I could see approaching traffic. I figured he decided to go the speed limit so I backed off of my pass and got back behind him.
Once I was behind him, he slowed down again, but this time to about 15 mph in a 50 mph road. We hit several hills again with no passing sections, so once again, I patiently waited for a safe section to pass.

As we began to crest the top of another hill, I waited to clear any on coming traffic and began a more positive and faster pass. Surprisingly, the middle aged man again, attempted to speed up to prevent my pass. However, I had too much momentum and overtook and completed the pass.

This action made that driver very angry, so he began to ride my bumper and honking his horn and appeared to be in a complete rage looking at him in my rear view mirror.

As I was coming up to a stop sign to stop, the driver behind me was so close to me raging, he ended up having to screech to a stop. His forward momentum slid his vehicle into my rear bumper, pushing my vehicle into the intersection of the 4 way stop.

As we got out of our vehicles, he already had his phone out calling 911, but he also had his Walther PPS out, pointing it at me. He began telling the 911 operator that he was a concealed carry and that he had me at gun point.

Anyway, to make a long story shorter, once the police department showed up in the city I work and live in, this middle aged man had to explain why he tried so hard to instigate a road rage incident and then feel justified to pull his gun and hold me at gun point after he rear ended me, pushing me into the intersection.

I definitely felt vindicated when he was arrested and booked. But I also couldn’t help feeling sorry for him at his arraignment when he went from thinking he was the one who was in the right, to realizing you can’t start a road rage incident and then think you are justified in pulling your CCW.

Glad it ended well for you. Some people don't wait for an excuse but figure they can make one up after the trigger is pulled.

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[trentr]

I have gone into hostile and possibly hostile situations unarmed. When asked why I was not taking a weapon, my reply is always.... Even the sight of a gun escalates an already tense situation. If there is not a gun present, I do not want to be the one to introduce one.

I have been pretty successful at deescalating things with words and have some confidence in my physical abilities without a weapon. He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world. Whom then shall I fear? One day I may end up in a situation where I wish I had a weapon. I have not yet. As stated by someone before, children/grandchildren/loved ones could change my approach. I try to trust my gut and pray I make the right decision in the moment. It is a crazy world we live in. Stay safe and support your LEO.

 

[OkieStubble]

I was on a forum once (I have since left) where the questions was asked of who would shoot someone they caught breaking in their car. I was surprised by the number of participants who said they would shoot.

I will only draw and fire if the danger to me or mine is IMMINENT.

This was a great post @PreachTheWord and brings up a good question that we all can reflect on. Might even show how much of “YMMV” even effects concealed carry.

It seems common sense to not shoot someone breaking into a car. However, using the logic of “lmminent”. Which is a great word, my question to all CCW holders is:

Who would and would not, still consider it “Imminent” to intervene If they saw a police officer or another person in a life threatening situation? Knowing their intervention would save that person’s life?

 

[PreachTheWord]

That is a difficult question. I would like to think that I would consider any threat to innocent life "imminent" and would intervene, but the truth is that since I have never been in that situation, I can't say for sure.

 

[martym]

I would and have in a heartbeat; without giving it a thought. But I come from a very different background.
I always back up officers on my way to and from work or at night on my way to or from the ranch.
But
Last weekend my neighbor was having a loud party that involved copious amounts of alcohol. I did not go to his house and ask them to lower the music. I called the police.
Why?
You cannot reason with a drunk(s) and why put yourself in that position.
Material things can be replaced.
A life cannot.

 

[oc_in_fw]

Firearms training cannot teach this kind of common sense situational awareness. Firearms training and tactics is all good to have, but the very few who don’t have the reality check of common sense situational awareness and even more important, a basic and fundamental “awareness of self”, shouldn’t make the many who do have it and carry a gun look bad.

I have a temper, and came to that realization a few decades ago. I have worked on that since. I do a pretty good job of conflict avoidance. Pride is not worth jail time, nor my mental health. Taking a life is a hell of a thing, and not something I want to deal with unless totally necessary.