Notes From The Edge

[Esox]

Just a minor hijack for you Seveneighth, to start the ball rolling.

Hey Rave @Raven Koenes, Mike @Esox, Jim @Chan Eil Whiskers ... are you guys hiding in your own threads?

I've been hiding in the usual places but also in another...

Endgame... The ATT SE1/Schick Proline Journal

So many threads to steer now it can be difficult know which to take where.

but my Fatip OC has been happy with ANY blade I've put in it so far.

And I'm gradually coming round to a lot of what you say especially on mild razors.

I have what I consider sensitive skin and there is much to be said for mild razors, but I honestly believe its more technique than razor efficiency, assuming the razor in question has the capability of providing the level of efficiency you want.

My post war Tech is mild. With a Feather blade its 3 full passes and 4 clean ups for a BBS that lasts 6 hours or so. It's very gentle on my skin.

My Brit Old Type clone is also very mild. With a Feather blade it's 3 full passes and one clean up. Its even more gentle on my skin because it has less blade gap, yet more efficient, so its less time for the blade on my skin. In use it feels exactly the same as the Tech.

The Fatip OC is The King of DE's in my less than humble opinion. As smooth and mild as my Tech or Brit clone, yet 5 times as efficient. Its all in the angle of use.

Used at the angle of the red line with the cap pushed into my skin it's as mild and gentle as either of the above razors. It has enough blade exposure and rigidity to easily shave directly ATG at 48+ hours growth with a single buffing pass and one light clean up over my swirls for a 12 hour BBS.

All three of those razors leave me feeling like I havent shaved. The Tech and Brit clone are very easy to use, there isnt a lot of choice for angle options. The Fatip has a much wider window of angle choice. With the right soaps for me, Wickham and CRS, I can easily shave with that razor as steep as possible with a shocking amount of pressure, even buffing, and still have that feeling of I havent shaved.

I've said before that I think of it as a "Straight with a training wheel, the cap" and to me thats exactly what it is. I use the cap as my guide to pressure and shave by feel.

If you have sensitive skin and/or, coarse and dense growth, being a straight razor shaver you'll most likely appreciate a DE with full baseplate support.

Above is my R41 and my Grande. Blade angle is slightly different, exposure virtually the same. I can easily shave ATG first pass with my Grande. I can barely shave ATG on my third pass with my R41 and a fresh Feather blade. The difference between the two is baseplate support. My Grande feels supremely safe and secure even used very aggressively. The R41 does not feel safe and secure even used delicately and very cautiously. Its like @rabidus said, some razors can be dangerous. The R41, I believe, is far more dangerous than any Fatip.

The RR GC is a nice design, as is the Karve. Where I feel they're going wrong, as with most razor manufacturers is, attempting to make the razor more efficient by increasing gap. Increasing blade gap does make a razor more efficient because it changes the angle of skin as it meets blade edge while traveling through that gap. Effectively, as gap increases, angle of edge to skin becomes steeper. This is the problem I have with blade gap. As I said I have sensitive skin and coarse, dense growth. Because of that I need to apply enough pressure to get the depth of cut deep enough for a long lasting shave. For me to do that with a razor that has gap is very hard on my skin.

Even with my Gillette NEW SC that is a wonderfully smooth razor, if I need more than my usual 2 1/2 passes, my skin will feel raw and hot. That razor only has .023" blade gap.

Compared to my Grande. NEW SC left, Grande right.


With a Kai blade that offers an extra .004" blade exposure per side of a DE, I've done five passes ATG with my Grande (Kai's dont cut well for me) and had cool comfortable skin. I cant do that with a razor that has blade gap.

Now that I've learned all of this over the last almost 2 years I can generate a very strong opinion on how a razor will work for me and where I think its shortcomings will be just by looking at its design. A baseplate that fully supports the blade, positive blade exposure and minimal gap I know will give me my most comfortable and closest shave.


I'm not sure where all of that came from, but I guess it needed an airing lol.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I am underwhelmed by the Gamechanger. I thought it would be the stainless Edwin Jagger, but for me it is not.

I haven't acquired one and probably won't. After reading the reviews I determined the newer GC, is it called the 84, would be the best fit for me in terms of the version most likely to deal with my tough whiskers. However, the name of the Game Changer game is gap and guard span.

I don't like gap. I don't like guard span. All things being equal I do better with DE safety razors like the Fatip which achieve efficiency via mechanisms other than these.

I'm sure it's an excellent razor for many people. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking it wouldn't suit me, but that's what I concluded. Can't buy every razor that hits the market, but this one was very tempting.

Of course, now I'm not using DE razors enough to much matter.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

I don't like gap. I don't like guard span. All things being equal I do better with DE safety razors like the Fatip which achieve efficiency via mechanisms other than these.

Can you explain what you mean further please?

 

[Esox]

I don't like gap. I don't like guard span. All things being equal I do better with DE safety razors like the Fatip which achieve efficiency via mechanisms other than these.

I'm with you.

Can you explain what you mean further please?

I've been having a PM with a member and was dicussing this very thing yesterday so I made the pictures to more easily explain.

My NEW SC and Fatip Grande below.

Blade gap and where I believe its measured in green. Guard span in red.

 

[Seveneighth]

I've been hiding in the usual places but also in another...

Endgame... The ATT SE1/Schick Proline Journal

So many threads to steer now it can be difficult know which to take where.




View attachment 940891



I have what I consider sensitive skin and there is much to be said for mild razors, but I honestly believe its more technique than razor efficiency, assuming the razor in question has the capability of providing the level of efficiency you want.

My post war Tech is mild. With a Feather blade its 3 full passes and 4 clean ups for a BBS that lasts 6 hours or so. It's very gentle on my skin.
View attachment 940893



My Brit Old Type clone is also very mild. With a Feather blade it's 3 full passes and one clean up. Its even more gentle on my skin because it has less blade gap, yet more efficient, so its less time for the blade on my skin. In use it feels exactly the same as the Tech.
View attachment 940896

The Fatip OC is The King of DE's in my less than humble opinion. As smooth and mild as my Tech or Brit clone, yet 5 times as efficient. Its all in the angle of use.
View attachment 940899

Used at the angle of the red line with the cap pushed into my skin it's as mild and gentle as either of the above razors. It has enough blade exposure and rigidity to easily shave directly ATG at 48+ hours growth with a single buffing pass and one light clean up over my swirls for a 12 hour BBS.

All three of those razors leave me feeling like I havent shaved. The Tech and Brit clone are very easy to use, there isnt a lot of choice for angle options. The Fatip has a much wider window of angle choice. With the right soaps for me, Wickham and CRS, I can easily shave with that razor as steep as possible with a shocking amount of pressure, even buffing, and still have that feeling of I havent shaved.

I've said before that I think of it as a "Straight with a training wheel, the cap" and to me thats exactly what it is. I use the cap as my guide to pressure and shave by feel.

If you have sensitive skin and/or, coarse and dense growth, being a straight razor shaver you'll most likely appreciate a DE with full baseplate support.

View attachment 940904

Above is my R41 and my Grande. Blade angle is slightly different, exposure virtually the same. I can easily shave ATG first pass with my Grande. I can barely shave ATG on my third pass with my R41 and a fresh Feather blade. The difference between the two is baseplate support. My Grande feels supremely safe and secure even used very aggressively. The R41 does not feel safe and secure even used delicately and very cautiously. Its like @rabidus said, some razors can be dangerous. The R41, I believe, is far more dangerous than any Fatip.

The RR GC is a nice design, as is the Karve. Where I feel they're going wrong, as with most razor manufacturers is, attempting to make the razor more efficient by increasing gap. Increasing blade gap does make a razor more efficient because it changes the angle of skin as it meets blade edge while traveling through that gap. Effectively, as gap increases, angle of edge to skin becomes steeper. This is the problem I have with blade gap. As I said I have sensitive skin and coarse, dense growth. Because of that I need to apply enough pressure to get the depth of cut deep enough for a long lasting shave. For me to do that with a razor that has gap is very hard on my skin.

Even with my Gillette NEW SC that is a wonderfully smooth razor, if I need more than my usual 2 1/2 passes, my skin will feel raw and hot. That razor only has .023" blade gap.

Compared to my Grande. NEW SC left, Grande right.
View attachment 940920 View attachment 940919

With a Kai blade that offers an extra .004" blade exposure per side of a DE, I've done five passes ATG with my Grande (Kai's dont cut well for me) and had cool comfortable skin. I cant do that with a razor that has blade gap.

Now that I've learned all of this over the last almost 2 years I can generate a very strong opinion on how a razor will work for me and where I think its shortcomings will be just by looking at its design. A baseplate that fully supports the blade, positive blade exposure and minimal gap I know will give me my most comfortable and closest shave.


I'm not sure where all of that came from, but I guess it needed an airing lol.

Interesting. The discussions on these journal threads are much more informative than on the general threads which are committed commonly "I love this razor..."

I haven't used an SE in months. I don't want to get sucked into that thread right now!!

 

[Somerled]

Interesting. The discussions on these journal threads are much more informative than on the general threads which are committed commonly "I love this razor..."

I haven't used an SE in months. I don't want to get sucked into that thread right now!!

Well, all this talk of DE razors almost had me reaching for my Feather AS-D2. It's probably been a year since I last used a DE razor, not counting shavette's.
But I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I did have a week off SR's and revisited my schick's not so long ago.
I may do that again soon.

One thing I don't have is an AC type SE and have always thought I would get an ATT SE1.
That may yet happen sometime in the distant future. Already have a pack of Prolines waiting for it.

I tend not to read all the other stuff, the "I love this razor" type threads.
Reminds me of another web site I still keep in touch with occassionaly. Head-Fi, a headphone site.
There is some good info on it but 99% of it is drivel.
You even get people comparing, reviewing, or giving out advice on hardware they have never heard.
Based on reviews that they have read from others. Crazy stuff.

 

[Esox]

Interesting. The discussions on these journal threads are much more informative than on the general threads which are committed commonly "I love this razor..."

I haven't used an SE in months. I don't want to get sucked into that thread right now!!

The journals forum see's less traffic so it can be less convoluted, but we do have our moments! lol

SE's are a different animal entirely. As smooth and efficient as my Grande is, my MMOC is twice as efficient and even more comfortable.

 

[Cal]

Blade gap and where I believe its measured in green. Guard span in red.

Correction on the "guard span" Mike:

 

[Esox]

Correction on the "guard span" Mike:

I've looked at that picture. It confuses me and stresses my eyes lol. I'm still not 100% clear on exactly where the guard span is measured from, at a neutral shave angle, but I'm under the impression its from the edge of the cap that contacts the skin to the edge of the SB/OC that contacts the skin.

Looking at that picture it appears, to me at least, to discount the cap altogether referring to it as 'cap span' and the guard span distance is measured from blade edge to a point somewhere on the SB/OC, but, where exactly and why precisely at those points like in that picture above?

I put them both together for ease because both the cap and bar are in my mind, 'guards' of a type. If you shave shallow, the cap is your guard. If you shave steep, the comb. If you shave at a neutral angle, both.

My pictures are only meant to give a very general and basic idea. I think they do that, but they are in no way, shape or form something I think of as 'precise'.

 

[Cal]

I am underwhelmed by the Gamechanger. I thought it would be the stainless Edwin Jagger, but for me it is not.

Firstly I got the GC68 as the GC84 wasn't available when I got "the urge." The only reason I did this is because IB say the GC68 has positive blade exposure, it hasn't. I love the simple look and accurate blade fitting of the GC so I got a GC84 as soon as one was available.

The GC84 arrived and I discovered that even it didn't have positive blade exposure. I photographed it and checked with a straight edge (while loaded). It has ±0 blade exposure. That's with a standard 22mm blade. Kais are 22.2mm wide so they would give it 0.1mm (or a blade thickness) blade exposure, but I find Kais (a good blade but) boring so I didn't try that out.

My first few shaves with the GC84 were by no means stellar, but I liked the look and feel and great blade rigidity of it so much that I decided to persevere in order to get a great shave out of it. I told myself "hey Jimmy, it's no' the bloody razor's fault ye canny ge' a guid shave, it's the opera'or." Having persevered I'm now getting great shaves from my GC84, AND it's my favorite DE!

I wouldn't consider purchasing an EJ due to its lack of blade support (not to mention its Zamacness), but I have to admit to owning an R41 and an iKon Tech (both of which I use with a shim to make the blade more rigid [thanks Anthony @rabidus ]).

 

[rabidus]

"hey Jimmy, it's no' the bloody razor's fault ye canny ge' a guid shave,

Poldark is one if my favorite shows!

 

[Seveneighth]

Firstly I got the GC68 as the GC84 wasn't available when I got "the urge." The only reason I did this is because IB say the GC68 has positive blade exposure, it hasn't. I love the simple look and accurate blade fitting of the GC so I got a GC84 as soon as one was available.

The GC84 arrived and I discovered that even it didn't have positive blade exposure. I photographed it and checked with a straight edge (while loaded). It has ±0 blade exposure. That's with a standard 22mm blade. Kais are 22.2mm wide so they would give it 0.1mm (or a blade thickness) blade exposure, but I find Kais (a good blade but) boring so I didn't try that out.

My first few shaves with the GC84 were by no means stellar, but I liked the look and feel and great blade rigidity of it so much that I decided to persevere in order to get a great shave out of it. I told myself "hey Jimmy, it's no' the bloody razor's fault ye canny ge' a guid shave, it's the opera'or." Having persevered I'm now getting great shaves from my GC84, AND it's my favorite DE!

I wouldn't consider purchasing an EJ due to its lack of blade support (not to mention its Zamacness), but I have to admit to owning an R41 and an iKon Tech (both of which I use with a shim to make the blade more rigid [thanks Anthony @rabidus ]).

Cal - thank you. Your summary exactly reflects my thoughts and experiences with the Gamechanger and supports what I have argued elsewhere in other forums. Nice to find someone that agrees.

The Mamba was a surprise when I turned it around. Sounds like the Gamechanger is worth persevering with as well.

 

[Seveneighth]

Correction on the "guard span" Mike:

Ok
I have a lot try to learn.

This needs careful study. Over a scotch or two.

 

[Cal]

This needs careful study. Over a scotch or two.

That MO is likely to leave you more confused than when you started Seveneighth.

I recommend this:

And we could do with your vote here.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Poldark is one if my favorite shows!

I watched and loved the Poldark series on PBS in the 1970s, and read the books, too. Great stuff. Haven't seen the new version though.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Grant gave me this gift, linked, concerning gap and guard span. I hope it will clear up some confusion. It certainly did for me, but you need to read and understand the linked material and see why he gave this to me.

 

[rabidus]

I watched and loved the Poldark series on PBS in the 1970s, and read the books, too. Great stuff. Haven't seen the new version though.

I've only watched the new one...

 

[Seveneighth]

Grant gave me this gift, linked, concerning gap and guard span. I hope it will clear up some confusion. It certainly did for me, but you need to read and understand the linked material and see why he gave this to me.

I'm with you on this. But ... What about the top cap? The illustrations don't take into account the profile of the cap lip or the cap shape.

Rockwell 6S, Parker Variant both have a distinctly pleasant capability when you ride the cap. A much milder and smoother cutting action especially against the grain on the neck than other razors.

Furthermore there has been some discussion about the difference between the Rockwell 6C and the 6S. The 6c is marginally smoother and more efficient. People put that down to finish, but if you examine the two razors the zamak version has a subtler cap lip profile (I guess due to the technological advantages of manufacturing zamak). I think this makes the cap very very slightly wider?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm with you on this. But ... What about the top cap? The illustrations don't take into account the profile of the cap lip or the cap shape.

Rockwell 6S, Parker Variant both have a distinctly pleasant capability when you ride the cap. A much milder and smoother cutting action especially against the grain on the neck than other razors.

Furthermore there has been some discussion about the difference between the Rockwell 6C and the 6S. The 6c is marginally smoother and more efficient. People put that down to finish, but if you examine the two razors the zamak version has a subtler cap lip profile (I guess due to the technological advantages of manufacturing zamak). I think this makes the cap very very slightly wider?

I don't know the razors here, but I think it clear the top cap and its profile and quite an important variable. I think of the top of the injectors.

I made a quantum jump when I moved from shallow angle cap riding to steeper angle shaving. I discovered that for me the design angle (neutral angle) or even steeper worked vastly better than cap riding.

In theory I think cap riding should be the way to go, but in practice for me it wasn't. If I know anything I know that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

I don't know the razors here, but I think it clear the top cap and its profile and quite an important variable. I think of the top of the injectors.

I made a quantum jump when I moved from shallow angle cap riding to steeper angle shaving. I discovered that for me the design angle (neutral angle) or even steeper worked vastly better than cap riding.

View attachment 941233

In theory I think cap riding should be the way to go, but in practice for me it wasn't. If I know anything I know that.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I think that is one of the mistakes I originally made with the Mamba. When it started to irritate I tried cap riding amongst other things and that just made matters worse. It was only when I had a good blade pairing and find the correct design angle that it started to work.