Norton Ascent

[cotedupy]

This is apparently being touted as a replacement for the Hard Arkansas:

Norton Ascent Ceramic Stone - Fine

Fine grit Norton Ascent Ceramic Stones are now available. The Norton Ascent is a true ceramic stone and is machined flat. It is used dry and doesn’t require flattening, so the stone is always ready for use.

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

Anybody tried one...?

 

[Tomo]

They won’t be replacing my arks.

Hopefully there will be a flood of old arks as people upgrade to the latest and greatest. I’m not holding my breath though.

 

[Legion]

Looks just like the Spyderco white stones.

4640133 Spyderco Benchstone Fine 2" x 8" W/Box : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

4640133 Spyderco Benchstone Fine 2" x 8" W/Box : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

 

[cotedupy]

Looks just like the Spyderco white stones.

4640133 Spyderco Benchstone Fine 2" x 8" W/Box : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

4640133 Spyderco Benchstone Fine 2" x 8" W/Box : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

A few people on KKF have said the same. Likely to be a similar affair apparently.

 

[JPO]

The Emperor's New Clothes​

 

[Slash McCoy]

Betcher @$$ I won't be an early adopter. I might try one when it is yesterday's news and it is in common use. I honestly don't see how it could be better than film/balsa. And I bet it isn't cheap, in the finer grits.

Since Norton doesn't seem to want to make stones finer than 8k, I wonder if they will try to make this in 12k or higher? Probably not.

 

[thp001]

Similar to the Spyderco ceramic stones. Grit doesn’t really tell you anything about how sintered stones finish (in sintering the abrasive particles fuse together and the stone becomes denser), and much of the finishing ability comes from how the stone is surfaced. I used to use a Fallkniven 521 (if I remember right) for knives which was a dual sided stone, ceramic and diamond, and I can tell you fine sintered ceramic leaves an incredibly sharp and polished edge. Would probably work well for a finisher imo.

 

[bluesman 7]

It brings a bit of nostalgia to me because researching the Spyderco stones of this type is what landed me on the straight razor sites when I first got interested. I never did buy one of these but I do have one of the triangular rods. Personally I've never liked the idea of stones that depend on surface prep for their equivalent grit effect, Washitas exempted to a degree for knives.

Back when people were trying the Spyderco on razors the main complaint was the nearly total lack of feedback.

 

[JPO]

It brings a bit of nostalgia to me because researching the Spyderco stones of this type is what landed me on the straight razor sites when I first got interested. I never did buy one of these but I do have one of the triangular rods. Personally I've never liked the idea of stones that depend on surface prep for their equivalent grit effect, Washitas exempted to a degree for knives.

Back when people were trying the Spyderco on razors the main complaint was the nearly total lack of feedback.

The spyderco ultra fine i have is like honing on glass or marble. Really not what i look for in a razor grade stone. They also tend to give a wire ede.

 

[ables]

A few people on KKF have said the same. Likely to be a similar affair apparently.

Similar to the Spyderco ceramic stones. Grit doesn’t really tell you anything about how sintered stones finish (in sintering the abrasive particles fuse together and the stone becomes denser), and much of the finishing ability comes from how the stone is surfaced. I used to use a Fallkniven 521 (if I remember right) for knives which was a dual sided stone, ceramic and diamond, and I can tell you fine sintered ceramic leaves an incredibly sharp and polished edge. Would probably work well for a finisher imo.

Agreed, similar to the sypderco Id think. I have a spyderco Fine I got from for about $25 . On one side there was a very shallow low spot and after ALOT of work (it's very hard) I have it polished/finished nicely. It took alot of trial and error to get it right. It works good as a finisher stone, very sharp. I did all this work before having an arkansas stone finisher setup, and now Id rather finish on the arkansas stones. But I can see the comparison between the two.

 

[cotedupy]

Similar to the Spyderco ceramic stones. Grit doesn’t really tell you anything about how sintered stones finish (in sintering the abrasive particles fuse together and the stone becomes denser), and much of the finishing ability comes from how the stone is surfaced. I used to use a Fallkniven 521 (if I remember right) for knives which was a dual sided stone, ceramic and diamond, and I can tell you fine sintered ceramic leaves an incredibly sharp and polished edge. Would probably work well for a finisher imo.

Can you (or someone else) explain to me, in layman's terms the difference between sintering and vitrification with regards sharpening stones...?

TY!

 

[thp001]

Can you (or someone else) explain to me, in layman's terms the difference between sintering and vitrification with regards sharpening stones...?

TY!

In vitrification a binder is present that under firing turns into a hard, glass like structure surrounding the abrasive. These can still be somewhat friable (think Norton SiC stones).

In sintered stones there is no binder material although a sintering aid is used which is usually about 2% of the composition. The stone is almost pure abrasive, the very high firing temps fuse the abrasive particles together creating a very hard, dense, non-friable stone.

 

[ErieSurfer]

Can you (or someone else) explain to me, in layman's terms the difference between sintering and vitrification with regards sharpening stones...?

TY!

Neither the presenter in the video nor the Sharpening Supplies product page makes reference to sintering, so I'm not sure how that word has been associated with the Ascent stone. The presenter does use the word 'alumina' toward the end of the video, so I am led to believe the stone stone is made of aluminum oxide with very little else in the mix. Perhaps nothing else.

Sintering generally starts with hollow balls or a uniform powder of some substance. Then you heat the material below its melting point and mash it together into the desired shape.

Sometimes sintering is used to create a finished product possessing useful voids like a bronze filter/muffler/breather:

or a bushing with self-lubricating characteristics: McMaster-Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/sintered-bronze/

or a finished part with complex features in one step: How The Sintering Process in Powder Metallurgy Works - Rainbow Ming - https://www.ppm.com.tw/list/powder-metallurgy-process.htm

Maybe Norton is sintering an aluminum oxide powder so that they can control the voids between the particles?

I am not particularly interested in a mid-range stone that is prone to loading. The video presenter hardly used the stone and it still had embedded metal that remained after cleaning.

Various arkansas stone types with oil work fine for mid-range work and they don't load so readily.

Wake me up when somebody invents a synthetic stone that isn't prone to wire edges and rapid loading.

 

[thp001]

Neither the presenter in the video nor the Sharpening Supplies product page makes reference to sintering, so I'm not sure how that word has been associated with the Ascent stone. The presenter does use the word 'alumina' toward the end of the video, so I am led to believe the stone stone is made of aluminum oxide with very little else in the mix. Perhaps nothing else.

Sintering generally starts with hollow balls or a uniform powder of some substance. Then you heat the material below its melting point and mash it together into the desired shape.

Sometimes sintering is used to create a finished product possessing useful voids like a bronze filter/muffler/breather:

View attachment 1426644

or a bushing with self-lubricating characteristics: McMaster-Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/sintered-bronze/

or a finished part with complex features in one step: How The Sintering Process in Powder Metallurgy Works - Rainbow Ming - https://www.ppm.com.tw/list/powder-metallurgy-process.htm

Maybe Norton is sintering an aluminum oxide powder so that they can control the voids between the particles?

I am not particularly interested in a mid-range stone that is prone to loading. The video presenter hardly used the stone and it still had embedded metal that remained after cleaning.

Various arkansas stone types with oil work fine for mid-range work and they don't load so readily.

Wake me up when somebody invents a synthetic stone that isn't prone to wire edges and rapid loading.

In the video the presenter says that the stone is a “fused alumina” product, this is a common term for a sintered product.
They are basically Nortons version of the Spyderco Fine/Ultra Fine stones which are also sintered. I believe the Spyderco stones are manufactured by Idahone.

Sintering abrasive into a stone has been around a while, Degussit stones used in the jewelry trade are one example of a sintered aluminum oxide stone. Ben Bouchard over at Baryonyx Knives has also started producing a sintered Silicon Carbide stone under the Black Magic name.

If these Nortons are anything like the Spyderco UF they will be anything but a midrange stone, the UF is renowned for the fineness of the finish it leaves.

For some reason manufacturers of ceramic stones recommend dry honing, hence the obvious loading in the video, but I have found a light oil works well on ceramics and helps keep the stone from loading. There’s a post over at one of the knife forums of someone who uses the UF with glycerine and it keeps the stone very clean. Bar Keepers Friend/Comet/Ajax can be used for more stubborn swarf.

Extremely hard, non friable stones of any kind are best suited to the final stages of sharpening.

 

[ErieSurfer]

For some reason manufacturers of ceramic stones recommend dry honing...

I have wondered about that. Somehow it seems that stone manufacturers think that dry honing is desirable, but I don't seem to come across users lamenting the use of water or oil to great extent. Is that a 'thing' on knife forums?

I have complained about oil in the past, but that is because all of my sharpening takes place at my computer desk. I don't like it migrating to my keyboard and mouse. Life in a townhouse comes with caveats...

 

[TexNat]

Erie,

what about sharpening on a dish towel on a kitchen counter or cutting board?

 

[ErieSurfer]

Erie,

what about sharpening on a dish towel on a kitchen counter or cutting board?

I've done some of that and I've come to the realization that I need to hone at the desk with oil and a few retired shower towels at hand.

I put the mouse and keyboard out of reach when I'm using oil now.

 

[thp001]

I have wondered about that. Somehow it seems that stone manufacturers think that dry honing is desirable, but I don't seem to come across users lamenting the use of water or oil to great extent. Is that a 'thing' on knife forums?

I have complained about oil in the past, but that is because all of my sharpening takes place at my computer desk. I don't like it migrating to my keyboard and mouse. Life in a townhouse comes with caveats...

I don’t spend a lot of time in the knife forums but it seems that using some sort of lubricant on a stone is the common method of sharpening. There are more dry honers though, there was a knife guy called John Juranich who wrote a book all about sharpening and his research led him to recommend dry honing, he developed some stones to be used dry which can still be bought, Razors Edge is the brand if I recall correctly.

The recommendation to dry hone on ceramics boggles my mind. To me the harder, finer and less friable a stone is, the more necessary some form of lubricant becomes because there is no other way to prevent swarf loading into the stone. In theory, dry sharpening on a soft stone you can always apply enough pressure to abrade away the surface of the stone but on a non friable stone this is impossible.

I use oil and water depending on what I’m doing but oil imo is a superior honing medium. That’s my finding both for hand sharpening and in the industrial grinding work I have been involved in.

 

[Legion]

I seem to recall, in the Spyderco Sharpmaker video, the guy saying that their stone was some sort of synthetic sapphire material.

It does leave a very fine edge, but it's performance really suffers if you neglect to clean it regularly, and it loads up quickly.

 

[thp001]

I seem to recall, in the Spyderco Sharpmaker video, the guy saying that their stone was some sort of synthetic sapphire material.

It does leave a very fine edge, but it's performance really suffers if you neglect to clean it regularly, and it loads up quickly.

Sapphires are aluminum oxide so it figures, more a marketing spiel than anything else but true. Ruby is another gemstone also composed of aluminum oxide, the red color comes from trace amounts of chromium.

There are a whole variety of aluminum oxide abrasives available, different colors and properties, how hard they are, how friable, etc.